The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Defaulting Skills by Attribute
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters -> Defaulting Skills by Attribute Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 14042
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
It's a bit rough, and the prereq's are low because there are so many of them, but it's a start.

Something along these lines, yes, although I find myself wondering if it needs to be something separate, with an even higher CP cost (like x3 instead of x2) to off-set the sheer number of prerequisites that will be advantaged by this.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MrNexx
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 1924
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then cut it down to just the three Capital Ship skills; Communications, Sensors, and Command basically fell under "This is something that would apply".
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 14042
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Then cut it down to just the three Capital Ship skills; Communications, Sensors, and Command basically fell under "This is something that would apply".

Exactly, they really would. I was picturing it less as a specific task and more as a professional title, like "Naval Officer" instead of "Capital Ship Operation". The problem is that any list of the sorts of skills required to be a Naval Officer is going to be pretty extensive, so if they're treated the same as Prerequisites, that's a hell of an inside track for PC costs if all you're doing is paying x2 to effectively improve six skills (or more) at once. Not that that wouldn't be the case if that's what you did for a living, but I'm definitely thinking the CP cost should be higher than just x2.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12936
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I tend to agree. If you want a skill to be something that characters can't use unless they're trained at it, make it an Advanced Skill, as there is already precedent in the RAW for this, as well as for different Difficulties depending on whether the character is trained or untrained (see the rules for Bacta Tanks).


The big problem with that, is there's little to show why certain skills should be advanced, thus require a prerequisite..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MrNexx
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 1924
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I tend to agree. If you want a skill to be something that characters can't use unless they're trained at it, make it an Advanced Skill, as there is already precedent in the RAW for this, as well as for different Difficulties depending on whether the character is trained or untrained (see the rules for Bacta Tanks).


The big problem with that, is there's little to show why certain skills should be advanced, thus require a prerequisite..


About the best examples I have seen are Medicine and Engineering skills... places where you've got clear tiering of skill ability between "technician" and "theorist"
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 7688
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A comment I'd like to make in general is, I run into a puzzling occurence among some GMs where game stats seem to be venerated as inviolable canon that require altering the rules to make the game stats make more sense. I feel this approach is putting the cart before the horse. If stats don't make sense to me, my first instinct it to change the stats to something that makes more sense for the system. I have tweaked the attribute dice allocation on many PC templates to what I think makes more sense for that character. I just don't use RAW PC template stats to justify changing the rules.

The Bissler wrote:
I want the characters to play to their strengths to encourage team play rather than everyone being capable of the same things with the same ease. I also wonder what the point of skill lists are at all if everyone can do everything with equal ease (yes, I know the base attributes can vary, but still).

Everyone can do everything with equal ease? That makes no sense to me. Does the TEC 4D character and the TEC 2D character do everything with equal ease? The base attributes alone can vary significantly with respect to average dice rolls.

And one point of skill lists are to further differentiate characters beyond what attributes only can do. A character with TEC 2D with no improved Security skill is not going to have equal ease as the TEC 4D character with 6D in Security.

I also want PCs to play to their strengths, and it has not been my experience that not having an unskilled penalty in any way discourages team play.

Mamatried wrote:
I agree to a lot of this, however what is the point with "profession" templates, civilian and military if anyone is "equally" good by default?

PC templates? I think you're forgetting that PCs are not average people. They are not even average military. PCs are 18D attribute adventurers. Your average member of a military is going to have a little better attributes and better soldiering skills than your average civilian. Most NPC senators would not have the stats of the PC templates. Most would have 2D in DEX and STR.

Mamatried wrote:
I would argue that a senator would not be as good as a soldier in soldiering, however by deafulting this is exactly what we could have.

OK, let's look at partial stats of starting PCs made from templates the last GM Screen:

Merc
DEX 3D+2
Blaster 5D+2
Dodge 5D+2
STR 3D+2

Old Senatorial
DEX 3D
Blaster 4D
Dodge
STR 2D

How would attribute defaulting make the Old Senatorial character "exactly" as good as a Merc in soldiering? Every single unallocated DEX skill of the Old Senatorial is going to be worse than the Merc's.

Once skills are allocated appropriately for each character according to the background, the difference is more drastic.

But an even more drastic attribute difference is base strength, which is used to resist damage. The Old Senatorial is much more likely to be killed in combat than the Merc. If the Merc has armor, he is even less likely to get seriously wounded. Even without armor, the Merc is clearly a better soldier.

garhkal wrote:
The big problem with that, is there's little to show why certain skills should be advanced, thus require a prerequisite.

For normal skills, there is a fine line between unskilled and skilled. If you use a skill successfully one time in an adventure, afterwards that experience allows you to spend the character points and improve the skill. "Skilled" isn't even necessarily "trained."

"Advanced skills demand years disciplined study to master..." (R&E p.29). Even if it isn't necessarily years, the general distinction seems to be a subject that requires time and study. Advanced skills are more than just experience.

There's little to show why certain skills should be advanced? Well, in real life, medicine requires college and medical school. Engineering likewise requires years of schooling. My path in college didn't take me into engineering, but I took a couple years of the math courses needed for engineering and this is not something you can quickly learn. In Star Wars, the fields of medicine and engineering are even broader than the Earth equivalents. So for some advance skills, we have a lot to show why certain skills should be advanced.

For any other skills, GMs can decide if this is a skill needs more time and study. For example, I feel that Capital Ship Operation should require more time and study, so I made it an advanced skill.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12936
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also want PCs to play to their strengths, and it has not been my experience that not having an unskilled penalty in any way discourages team play.


IF anything, making everyone exactly as good as each other, to me does discourage team play.. If everyone can do the same as anyone else, there's (IMO) Less need FOR others.

Quote:
For normal skills, there is a fine line between unskilled and skilled. If you use a skill successfully one time in an adventure, afterwards that experience allows you to spend the character points and improve the skill. "Skilled" isn't even necessarily "trained."


So maybe there needs to be a line to differentiate between untrained and trained...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1345
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been thinking making evertyhing untrained one difficulty category higher, making a moderate into a difficult etc.

then once the player spends cp for +1pip or more to the skill, this penalty goes away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12936
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That works.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Bissler
Commander
Commander


Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I have been thinking making evertyhing untrained one difficulty category higher, making a moderate into a difficult etc.

then once the player spends cp for +1pip or more to the skill, this penalty goes away.


Yes, this exactly what I do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
The Bissler
Commander
Commander


Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
I want the characters to play to their strengths to encourage team play rather than everyone being capable of the same things with the same ease. I also wonder what the point of skill lists are at all if everyone can do everything with equal ease (yes, I know the base attributes can vary, but still).

Everyone can do everything with equal ease? That makes no sense to me. Does the TEC 4D character and the TEC 2D character do everything with equal ease? The base attributes alone can vary significantly with respect to average dice rolls.

And one point of skill lists are to further differentiate characters beyond what attributes only can do. A character with TEC 2D with no improved Security skill is not going to have equal ease as the TEC 4D character with 6D in Security.

I also want PCs to play to their strengths, and it has not been my experience that not having an unskilled penalty in any way discourages team play.



I did refer to the difference in the base attributes in that quote so we absolutely agree on that point. When I say equal ease, I mean rolling without penalty.

I have nothing against players using skills which they don't have, but I want it to be more difficult for them quite simply because they don't have the skill. I'm looking to encourage players to learn skills if they want to use them, but it makes more sense if they defer to someone who is particularly skilled in a certain skill.

The team want to hack a door - defer to the character who has high Security, they want to bluff their way past Stormtroopers - defer to the character with a high Con, etc. That's what I mean by encouraging team play, everyone has a chance to do any action, but those who are unskilled should not meddle in things when they know there's someone in the team that's better suited to successfully carrying out the task. I think it means that the characters have their opportunity to shine in their specialisations rather than all and sundry having a go.

Incidentally, what I've just written there might indicate that I allow my players to discuss their stats and go with the person with the highest skill - I don't! They have to talk about these things in character, usually with someone saying that they can do it or that they are good at it. It's perfectly possible though that this means that it is not necessarily the person who is best at the skill who performs it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0