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Ultra-simplified Force Rules
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Ultra-simplified Force Rules Reply with quote

I've been thinking lately on how super complicated running the Force is in D6, and I had a thought on how to really simplify using the Force.

Instead of a multitude of Powers, just allow a Jedi to use half their Force skill to enhance a skill: Half Sense added into Lightsaber, half of Control added into Climbing/Jumping, half Sense added into social skills, or half of Alter into Con for affect mind. Instinctive Astrogation just adds half sense into Astrogation checks. Then just narrate how the Jedi subtly uses the force to get a better sense of the situation or improved focus or whatever.

For abilities like Telekinesis, just roll your full Alter against the appropriate difficulty.

I suppose part of the reason that I've been coming to this conclusion is that having the spell list for your Jedi always bothered me, this way is quick and easy and doesn't have to slow down play at all looking up rules for specific force powers.

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts on this.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've considered using half-value on various powers for a while now, and there is already precedent in the RAW (Force Lightning inflicts 1/2 Alter in Damage). However, I would still require the roll to bring the power up.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Ultra-simplified Force Rules Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I've been thinking lately on how super complicated running the Force is in D6, and I had a thought on how to really simplify using the Force.

Instead of a multitude of Powers, just allow a Jedi to use half their Force skill to enhance a skill: Half Sense added into Lightsaber, half of Control added into Climbing/Jumping, half Sense added into social skills, or half of Alter into Con for affect mind. Instinctive Astrogation just adds half sense into Astrogation checks. Then just narrate how the Jedi subtly uses the force to get a better sense of the situation or improved focus or whatever.

For abilities like Telekinesis, just roll your full Alter against the appropriate difficulty.

I suppose part of the reason that I've been coming to this conclusion is that having the spell list for your Jedi always bothered me, this way is quick and easy and doesn't have to slow down play at all looking up rules for specific force powers.

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone else has any thoughts on this.

That could work. Like you said, the Force does some things that aren't related to any normal skills, like Telekinesis, so there would still have to be some rules. If you get the point of making an ultra-simplified PDF, I'd love to share that on the Library.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm going to play around with the idea a bit more... Maybe I'll do some playtesting in my solo game and see how it goes. I imagine that it'll give Jedi a little extra bump in pretty much everything, and it will way unbalance things once Jedi start getting skills up into the 10D+ range since +5D bonus to most skill checks is pretty outrageous, although I have seen players abuse the Concentration force power to no end... so this I guess slows the progression of the power creep.

So, I'm thinking that if I'm going to implement this fully, I'll have to do away with my "Force Attribute" and Control, Sense, and Alter as skills. I'll probably have to go to a weird middle ground to slow force skill progression a bit without making it too costly.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?


Where did Luke learn to telekinetically call his lightsaber to him on Hoth?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?


Yes, in theory. In actuality, it gets rid of almost all force powers making the Force a passive bonus to almost any skill a player can come up with an interesting way that the Force influences or enhances their attempt.

The learning and training still works towards increasing your Force skills, so it doesn't do away with training unless the GM decides that is what they want to do.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have any suggestions for Force Powers that can't be described as simply adding a bonus to an existing skill?

Telekinesis is one.
Force Lightning.

I'm sure the more obscure we get in some of the conversion and fan brewed powers we'd find others.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?


Where did Luke learn to telekinetically call his lightsaber to him on Hoth?


Some of the training obi wan gave him, surely touched on tk.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?


Where did Luke learn to telekinetically call his lightsaber to him on Hoth?


Some of the training obi wan gave him, surely touched on tk.


Tattooine to Alderaan is 7 hours, 3.5 in the Falcon. With 19 character points and a generous GM, Luke can get 1D Control and learn Concentrate.

Then Obi-Wan is dead.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
garhkal wrote:
With that though, doesn't that open up ALL force powers to all force users, no need to learn about them/get taught?

Where did Luke learn to telekinetically call his lightsaber to him on Hoth?

Some of the training obi wan gave him, surely touched on tk.

Tattooine to Alderaan is 7 hours, 3.5 in the Falcon. With 19 character points and a generous GM, Luke can get 1D Control and learn Concentrate.

Then Obi-Wan is dead.

Not to derail Raven's thread, but I'm of a mind similar to garhkal's in this respect. Although I am all for simplifying Force powers (perhaps combining similar ones), I like Force users having to learn specific powers and a power tree of prerequisites. Starting out powers may be instinctual if the PC had no training in their background, but learning new powers requires a teacher. I do not view this as a spell list because powers are not like spells.

I agree with Nexx that Luke's training in hyperspace on the Falcon was minimal, but there are other continuity solutions besides unlimited access to powers. Obi-Wan didn't have time to teach him Alter, and it isn't only Telekinesis that Luke learned in between the films. Luke didn't get much if any melee lightsaber training from Yoda but he had some skill on Cloud City (no match for Vader, but some). He didn't learn that from Obi-Wan either.

There are three years in between the first two films, so in my SWU Luke had training from another minor Force user, a former padawan that had survived. Someone who couldn't advance Luke a lot but someone to fill in the gap between his crash-course trainings with the filmic Jedi Masters. In my SWU Luke also got more training from a knight in between TESB and RotJ to explain why his training was abandoned/incomplete in TESB yet almost complete in RotJ. These other Jedi characters both died so that Luke would live or escape Vader. The padawan had been the padawan of the knight, and they had both left the Jedi Order to serve Republic interests in a separatist movement related civil war in the Tapani sector that the Republic could not officially get involved in. They they went to a satellite galaxy and ended up missing the Separatist War completely. They separately retuned to the galaxy proper after the rise of the Empire so had no knowledge about Obi-Wan possibly having another padawan after Anakin, Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, or Palpatine being a Sith Lord.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm immediately reminded of the suggestion from the TotJ Companion, which allowed a character to expend a FP to use a power that they hadn't already learned. And if one were to use the Force Attribute optional rule, they'd be able to roll that in place of Alter. IMO, Luke would have a Force Attribute in the 6D-7D range, so even if the Force Point just allowed him to use TK untrained without doubling his dice value, he'd still have more than enough to TK a lightsaber from ~1 meter away.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, that's a cool rules option, but regarding Luke, he showed more lightsaber skills on Bespin than he would have learned from Obi-Wan and Yoda combined. So Luke getting a little more general Jedi training in between feels right to me.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, even if you don't agree with my end result, I appreciate the constructive suggestions so far.

I think in the first post I'm going to create a list of easy to do away with powers and ones that don't really add into another skill... If it seems like I'm keeping more powers than doing away with, then I may rethink this...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm immediately reminded of the suggestion from the TotJ Companion, which allowed a character to expend a FP to use a power that they hadn't already learned. And if one were to use the Force Attribute optional rule, they'd be able to roll that in place of Alter. IMO, Luke would have a Force Attribute in the 6D-7D range, so even if the Force Point just allowed him to use TK untrained without doubling his dice value, he'd still have more than enough to TK a lightsaber from ~1 meter away.


I've also loved that suggestion.. That way, if they've seen an enemy use it on them, but they've yet to learn it themselves, they can still try it at a cost.
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