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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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So, the logical progression of my (A) Avoid skill also applies to vehicle and starship combat. In combination with my Velocity Modifier rule, I'm picturing a separate skill called (A) Evasion as a Mechanical skill. It's used the same way as (A) Avoid, but in combination with the various piloting / operation skills. It will either be two separate skills (one for ground vehicles, one for fliers and spacecraft), or one (A) Skill for every Piloting / Operation skill (I haven't decided which yet).
This would be the final piece of my Dodge rewrite concept, in combination with the Velocity Modifier rule, which would completely replace the RAW concept of Dodge.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Maneuvering a ground vehicle, whether walker, hover or the like, is a lot different than doing it for an air craft, even helos... So i'd split them up.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maneuvering a ground vehicle, whether walker, hover or the like, is a lot different than doing it for an air craft, even helos... So i'd split them up. |
Agreed. The question is, how much to split them up.
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pakman
Commander
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I too have split up vehicles into two skills - to represent the differences similar to these concepts.
I call them piloting and Vehicle Ops.
Piloting –
Piloting flying vehicles from Air speeders to star fighters and space transports. This skill is also used in Dodging attacks while in such vehicles to avoid enemy fire.
Vehicle Ops –
Controlling ground-based vehicles like land speeders, ground cars, swoops or walkers. This skill is also used in Dodging attacks while in such vehicles to avoid enemy fire.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Maneuvering a ground vehicle, whether walker, hover or the like, is a lot different than doing it for an air craft, even helos... So i'd split them up. |
Agreed. The question is, how much to split them up. |
2d vs 3d movement.
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Totally Not An ISB Agent
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Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject: A different take |
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After a nearly four-year undercover op... er, uh, I mean absence, I'm back.
I too have felt the need for Dodge to be reworked and whilst reading this thread, an idea came to me.
Roll the Dodge (or Agility - which I'm a fan of) vs a DC based on the range of the attack.
Point Blank: Very Difficult
Short: Difficult
Medium: Moderate
Long: Easy
Extreme: Very Easy
If the Dodge roll succeeds, add +1D6 to the DC of the shot.
You could stack this with the movement modifier.
And you could use it in conjunction with whichever success-based system you prefer.
Also, you could change the Full Dodge action to allow the character to make Dodge rolls vs all incoming shots for the round without incurring additional MAPs.
As for making it an Advanced skill, I haven't decided yet. We do see Fennec Shand do an obvious dodge in The Rescue, but if anyone was going to have an Advanced combat skill, it would be her.
On another note, how exactly does something the size of a Star Destroyer dodge? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: A different take |
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| Totally Not An ISB Agent wrote: | | After a nearly four-year undercover op... er, uh, I mean absence, I'm back. |
Welcome back.
| Quote: | | I too have felt the need for Dodge to be reworked and whilst reading this thread, an idea came to me. |
I appreciate the input, but I'm not ready to abandon my current version just yet.
| Quote: | | Also, you could change the Full Dodge action to allow the character to make Dodge rolls vs all incoming shots for the round without incurring additional MAPs. |
This is already the way both Normal and Full Dodges work, though. Multiple shots would be better represented by adding a Coordination Modifier to the attacker's Gunnery roll. I haven't quite decided how I want Full Dodge to work with my Advanced Skill concept, but the reduction in MAPs when combining a Dodge roll with a Half Move (Free Action) and no other actions is a nice bonus all on its own. Since the goal is to nerf Dodge in favor of taking Cover, I might get rid of Full Reactions altogether.
| Quote: | | On another note, how exactly does something the size of a Star Destroyer dodge? |
"Take evasive action!"
Essentially the same as a character would Dodge under this system: they'd assume they were going to be shot and move in such a way as to make themselves a more difficult target. It's just happening on a much larger scale. Fortunately for them, the weapons they have to worry about are large, slow firing and relatively inaccurate (compared to Character-Scale ones, at least).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Totally Not An ISB Agent
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Joined: 06 May 2020
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Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:59 am Post subject: Re: A different take |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This is already the way both Normal and Full Dodges work, though. |
Oh. Yeah. Right. Apparently I wasn't sufficiently caffeinated.
| Quote: | | Since the goal is to nerf Dodge in favor of taking Cover, I might get rid of Full Reactions altogether. |
I just had another thought that would tone Dodge down a bit. Eliminate the skill entirely.
Hear me out.
I'm currently working on fleshing out Martial Arts using the Key Attacks giving bonuses concept from Cyberpunk 2020, and one of them is dodge. Like, for example, Boxing has dodge as a Key Attack as there is a lot of bobbing and weaving going on. Which would mean that Dodge is an integral part of at least some Martial Arts, and possibly by extension, Brawling and Melee
Also, I currently I have a chart in my rules document that gives penalties for using Dodge vs Brawling or Melee. I don't remember where I got it though.
Reaction.....|Unarmed|Melee|.
Dodge........|....-1D....|.-2D..|.
Brawling.....|.............|.-1D..|.
Melee ........|....+1D...|........|.
Lightsaber...|....+2D...|.+1D.|.
I won't bother with the rest of the table...
So, what if we flipped it? Simply make Dodge a part of Brawling Parry and Melee Parry (or Brawling and Melee if, like me, you've folded those skills together). And then give a penalty if you attempt to use Brawling (Parry) or Melee (Parry) to dodge blaster bolts.
Mechanically, it wouldn't have any real effect on Brawling (Parry) or Melee (Parry); it would just add a flavour variety: "You duck under his wild swing" as opposed to "You parry his wild swing". And it would tone down dodging blaster bolts just slightly. Enough, perhaps, to make taking cover an attractive option.
However, I'm still working on my morning coffee, so this might just be a big steaming pile of bantha poodoo. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I am all for a static (based on skill and attribute and potential skill synergy) defensse.
I can see the "thought through and planned in the moment" dodging, but I feel the aspect that is not at all covered is the reflexes.
Everyone that is alive will instinctively react and "avoid" or dodge an incomming attack, sucess of failure at that.
Now if we make dodge into an advanced skill to me this makes people unable to "refelx" and have instincts.
I can see how i am actively "avoiding" or attempting to, and this will require both skill and rolls.
Now the Issue is the random, you walk into a room and something falls from the roof and lands on you, but you do not have an advance skill so you can only stand, and then AFTER the impact you can react.
I love the "passive" vaules that many systems use, a stat and skill (+ bonues) based defense....as I can not find it making any logical sense that ANY level of training other learning to walk is required for intsicts and reflexes, and to me this is where any changing of the skill is needed.
I would also say this applies to search and persception......I have eyes I am not blind so I will not need to roll to "see" stuff, or notice stuff.....I just heard something outside, I was "not actively listening" so it must be randomized in some way.
Tis is the issue I find with many such skills, be them a notice skill or a dodge skill and even some other skills as well, have them at a +Bonues Default statcic to be sued in those conditions.
So to me the non active..reflex based "dodge or avoiding" is what I feel needs to be changed, I can actually not see ANY cases where you need to actively "train" to not be hit......I find the brawling and melee Parry Skills to cover thse, this is narrative and you do dodge attacks and counter etc etc. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: A different take |
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| Totally Not An ISB Agent wrote: | [img]https://imgur.com/f0R8Kyb[/img]
*Edit: apparently that didn't work. |
I fixed the rendering of your chart in your post. It didn't work because you used a non-image URL to the page where the image is instead of the direct URL for the image itself. The IMG tags require the direct image URL to work.
imgur page w/ image: https://imgur.com/f0R8Kyb
imgur image URL: https://i.imgur.com/f0R8Kyb.jpeg
To get the direct image URL, I just right-clicked on the image on the page and chose "Open image in new tab". I'm on a Mac but I think PCs have something similar. FYI for the future. Carry on.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:26 am Post subject: Re: A different take |
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| Totally Not An ISB Agent wrote: | | I just had another thought that would tone Dodge down a bit. Eliminate the skill entirely. |
I can tell we’re thinking along similar lines, and I very much like the chart. Just to make sure we aren’t talking past each other, here’s a quick summary with links, as my overall concept is spread across multiple posts:-Agility replaces Running for most normal character movement (except for Swimming or Flying characters).
-Any use of the Agility skill can take advantage of the Velocity Modifier, as a moving target will always be more difficult to hit than a static one.
-Brawling Parry, Melee Parry and some aspects of Dodge are folded into Defense, a blanket skill covering a character’s ability to react to attacks they can perceive with their natural senses, including Melee and Brawling, as well as Thrown Weapons and Hand Grenades. Catching arrows might be an option at higher skill levels, perhaps as a Martial Art Technique.
-(A) Avoid (the Dodge Advanced Skill) is used to counter attacks the character can’t perceive with their natural senses (mostly blaster bolts and bullets, but also launched grenades, missiles and the like). Basically, the character assumes they’re going to be shot at and acts in such a way as to be a more difficult target. Also, unlike Defense, (A) Avoid must be combined with some sort of Move action (subject to MAPs as normal) and stacks with any Velocity Modifiers.
-Because (A) Avoid includes the ability to take advantage of terrain / environment features (as per discussion with Naaman when developing this rule), it also stacks with any Partial Cover Modifiers and/or Crouching / Prone Modifiers.
-While this part isn’t written up, because Jedi precognitive abilities allow them to perceive attacks before they happen, a Jedi with Lightsaber Combat “up” can use their Defense skill to counter attacks that would normally require (A) Avoid.
-Another aspect that isn’t written up yet is that there will be (A) Avoid equivalents for both Vehicle and Starship Combat, organized along similar lines. I’m going to take some time to grok your chart and will almost certainly incorporate aspects of it into Defense.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: A different take |
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RAW: | An R&E author wrote: | Dodge
. Time Taken: One round.
. Specializations: Kind of ranged attack to be dodged — energy weapons, grenades, slugthrowers, missile weapons.
. Dodge is a "reaction skill" used to avoid any ranged attack, including blaster fire, grenades, bullets and arrows. Characters using this are doing whatever they can to dodge the attack — slipping around a corner for cover, diving behind cargo containers, dropping to the ground, or any other maneuvers to avoid getting hit. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have not had any problems with dodges using the RAW |
There's nothing technically wrong with Dodge in the RAW; my issue is mainly cinematic, in that Dodge in combat on the tabletop is noticeably different from what we see on screen (as in, on screen, when a blaster fight happens, generally everyone dives for the nearest bit of Cover and continues the fight from there until circumstances require them to break cover and move). As things stand, the current mechanic favors putting dice into Dodge, then shimmying around out in the open to avoid getting hit. In order to bring things more in line with the films, Dodge needs to be nerfed such that taking Cover and fighting from there is the preferable option. |
It seems more clear that your premise for making dodge an advanced skill is based on an erroneous interpretation of RAW (and maybe also the films)...
I've read the supposition that the dodge skill needs nerfed in favor of seeking cover. Have you read the dodge skill? RAW dodge is about seeking cover. Slipping around a corner for cover. Diving behind cargo containers (which provide cover). Dropping to the ground. And making dodge advanced does not accomplish "nerfing" the dodge skill. It is far worse. It eliminates it, not "nerfs." It completely removes dodge for all those who do not have the skill (since there is no attribute defaulting for advanced skills). So characters just have to run for cover, but on their way, it is open season on them. The films do not show people getting pegged a lot because they don't make it to cover in time. Characters can duck their heads on their way to cover.
In my decades of ample real world gameplay experience, I have never had players just saying their characters are "shimmying around out in the open to avoid getting hit." Full cover with protection is far superior to any dodging, since the character may not be attacked until the protection is reduced. Players are already incentivized by RAW to seek cover with protection. And dodge rolls can be flubbed, so if a PC decides he will just run around like a chicken with its head cut off and a GM allows that, he could be hit with no protection absorbing any of the damage. It doesn't take players long to learn the benefits of cover with damage-absorbing protection. This concern about RAW dodge does not have any basis in reality. And if characters are using partial cover because they are peaking out to attack then retreating back behind the cover, that is still dodging per RAW.
And the dodge skill also doesn't work like "bullet time" in The Matrix, where Neo or the agents stand still and somehow dodge all the bullets. That would more like a Force power than an advanced skill. Movement is explicit in the actions described in the RAW skill description. Slipping around a corner, diving, dropping, and other maneuvers. Dodge is kinetic like the films. The main thing lacking in the RAW dodge skill is more definition about the movement (any minimum or maximum distances travelled, etc.) Adding more required movement details to the dodge skill does not warrant making it advanced.
There are two criteria for skill being advanced. (1) It should not default to attribute, meaning non-skilled characters shouldn't be able to even attempt it. (2) There should be prerequisites for having the skill. Ducking your head, running for cover, and trying not to avoid danger on the way is something all characters should be able to attempt, so the skill should default to attribute. This is part of the instinctive "flight response" that even animals have, so there should not be prerequisite skills required for doing it, and again, base attribute should be an option without the skill. Dexterity is the most applicable defaulting attribute.
I truly hope this helps.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | "any other maneuvers to avoid getting hit." |
Strictly speaking, this open-ended statement would include cavorting around out in the open without trying to take advantage of Cover. Nor is there any particular restriction in the rules for Dodge that prohibit it from being used this way. I sense that you have a pretty mature group of players who aren’t willing to break believability in order to take advantage of the specific wording of the rules, and that’s a very good thing. That doesn’t make Dodge as written a good rule, though. Sure, GM fiat could be used to ban such behavior, but it’s far better (IMO) to shape a rule that explicitly excludes it.
And that’s just my most obvious critique. Yes, Cover is always a better option, but the fact that the rules allow characters to react to even long range sniper fire as though they could sense the attack coming is just wrong. I’ve long felt that the 2R&E rules for standard Dodge felt… off, in that rolling To Hit against either the Base Difficulty or the target’s Dodge roll (whichever was higher) didn’t accurately represent the difficulty of hitting a moving target at range. It has always seemed more appropriate to me that any Dodge roll should be stacked with the Base Difficulty; one of my earlier ideas was to allow the PC to add 1/2 Dodge to the Difficulty on normal Dodge, and the full skill on a Full Dodge. However, discussions with Naaman brought up other points that I hadn’t fully considered, which is why my concept includes both Defense (for attacks a character can react to) and (A) Avoid (for attacks that can't be reacted to, just preempted). By "preempted" I mean that the character can't react to the attack as it occurs, they can only assume they will be attacked and take steps to mimize their exposure.
| Quote: | | And making dodge advanced does not accomplish "nerfing" the dodge skill. It is far worse. It eliminates it, not "nerfs." It completely removes dodge for all those who do not have the skill (since there is no attribute defaulting for advanced skills). |
This is why the Advanced Skill rule needs to be viewed in the context of the larger house rule concept. Characters who don’t have the (A) Dodge skill still have their Velocity Modifier (with the Move Level modifiers) and the option of crouching (which also increases the Difficulty to hit). On top of that, the (A) skill will be relatively easy to pick up (you only have to have 4D in Running / Agility). And once you’ve got it, it stacks with all of the above.
| Quote: | | There are two criteria for skill being advanced. (1) It should not default to attribute, meaning non-skilled characters shouldn't be able to even attempt it. (2) There should be prerequisites for having the skill. Ducking your head, running for cover, and trying not to avoid danger on the way is something all characters should be able to attempt, so the skill should default to attribute. |
As written, (A) Avoid has Agility as a prerequisite (and stacks with it for Move actions), but when used on its own, it stacks either with the PC's Velocity Modifier or with any Cover Modifiers. Ducking one's head behind Cover, again, is not realistically something a normal person should be able to do as a reaction to a high velocity range attack like a bullet or blaster bolt. Having the training to peek one's head out, take a quick look, then immediately duck back behind Cover is more in keeping with the sort of things military personnel are trained to do to minimize their own exposure, and is more in keeping with (A) Avoid.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | "any other maneuvers to avoid getting hit." |
Strictly speaking, this open-ended statement would include cavorting around out in the open without trying to take advantage of Cover. Nor is there any particular restriction in the rules for Dodge that prohibit it from being used this way. I sense that you have a pretty mature group of players who aren’t willing to break believability in order to take advantage of the specific wording of the rules, and that’s a very good thing. That doesn’t make Dodge as written a good rule, though... And that’s just my most obvious critique. |
No, I've never had any immature rules lawyers argue that a possible interpretation of this clause include zigging and zagging out in the open to avoid being hit. It is clear from the context of the rest of the clauses that the intention is for the skill is to help on the character's way to cover.
But we don't have to just depend on the context and player maturity because characters are game mechanically incentivized by the fact that cover with protection provides more defense than just moving on its own.
And when dodging with respect to cover, a miss to the character can be a hit to the cover. If a character could possibly have gotten to the cover before the attack hits, then dodge could represent the character just making it behind cover (without the cover rules being game mechanically in effect yet). The remaining issue seems to be with a small subset of cases where the character couldn't have possibly gotten to the cover yet.
| Quote: | | Sure, GM fiat could be used to ban such behavior, but it’s far better (IMO) to shape a rule that explicitly excludes it. |
Making the skill advanced is an extreme solution to such a tiny problem. An easy solution could be to just simply rewrite the skill without that one clause. Or, better yet, if you are really worried about bad player behavior, simply write it right into the rule that you can't cavort out in the open without trying to take advantage of cover. The fear that this clause allows bad player behavior does not warrant making dodge an advanced skill.
| Quote: | | Yes, Cover is always a better option, but the fact that the rules allow characters to react to even long range sniper fire as though they could sense the attack coming is just wrong. |
The rules don't allow for that. That's not how it works in RAW. See the Surprise rule on R&E p.96: "When characters are surprised, their attackers can automatically take their first action before the "surprised" side can act. The "surprised" side cannot roll defensive skills to dodge or parry this first action." (The word cannot being italicized is their emphasis, not mine.) If a character could not sense a sniper attack is coming, they can't dodge the first shot. After the first shot, then they know about the sniper attack and can then start dodging.
| Quote: | | I mean that the character can't react to the attack as it occurs, they can only assume they will be attacked and take steps to mimize their exposure. |
If a character suspects an ambush but doesn't actually know about a sniper, then yes, they can only take steps to minimize their exposure (such as crouching or staying behind cover as much possible). They cannot "dodge" a sniper attack if they are surprised by it. This is the way RAW works already.
| Quote: | | ...one of my earlier ideas was to allow the PC to add 1/2 Dodge to the Difficulty on normal Dodge, and the full skill on a Full Dodge. |
That is a much less extreme house rule than making dodge an advanced skill. But I feel the fact that normal dodge is always MAPped by whatever else you do in the round is enough.
| Quote: | | This is why the Advanced Skill rule needs to be viewed in the context of the larger house rule concept. Characters who don’t have the (A) Dodge skill still have their Velocity Modifier (with the Move Level modifiers) and the option of crouching (which also increases the Difficulty to hit). On top of that, the (A) skill will be relatively easy to pick up (you only have to have 4D in Running / Agility). And once you’ve got it, it stacks with all of the above. |
Once you've got it. Part of the larger context of it being an advanced skill representing military training is that most character would not start out with the skill, and to get it they must be trained by someone that has it, which would usually specifically be a military character. This is radically limiting.
I can see an appropriate tactics specialization representing military training that can help with dodge/defense, and that would not prevent all characters from having access to dodging.
| Quote: | | Ducking one's head behind Cover, again, is not realistically something a normal person should be able to do as a reaction to a high velocity range attack like a bullet or blaster bolt. |
I disagree. I am a normal, nonmilitary person. If I am walking through a parking lot and see someone even looking in my direction with a weapon drawn, my first instinct is to going to be to duck down beside a car. If there aren't any cars in between us already, I am going to move to where I can get a car between the shooter and myself and keep my head ducked down as much as possible. Nonmilitary people can have survival instincts. Since it is somewhat instinctive, then it should be something that defaults to attribute, not an advanced skill which doesn't.
And even I wouldn't do that, nonmilitary characters in movies do stuff like this all the time. The rules are meant to be cinematic. In my game, the skill used to dodge represents some amount of luck too. This more closely emulates the cinematic reality of scripted, linear narratives (which this game is based on), not our reality.
| Quote: | | However, discussions with Naaman brought up other points that I hadn’t fully considered, which is why my concept includes both Defense (for attacks a character can react to) and (A) Avoid (for attacks that can't be reacted to, just preempted). |
See this post.
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