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Forceally Commodore
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:10 am Post subject: Rope strength |
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I know that in Star Wars, you have a lot of high-tech gadgets and gizmos to restrain someone. But after capturing our heroes, the Ewoks bound them with ropes. So, this may be a silly question to ask, but what strength does rope has? I know binders have Strength 5D, so chances are a rope's Strength would be much less. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:29 am Post subject: |
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A few more points...
Magnacuffs (GG10, pg. 89) have "a Strength of 6D+2 to hold individuals."
A Magnaharness (GG10, pgs. 89-90) have "a Strength of 8D to hold individuals."
A Man Trap (GG10, pg. 90) has a variable Strength of 5D to 15D.
A Restraint Capsule (GG10, pg. 90) has a Strength of 7D.
Stun Cuffs (Jedi Academy SB, pgs. 140-141) don't list a Strength, but do say that they inflict Stun Damage equal to the character's Strength when they struggle, so presumably, this could be combined with Binders or Magnacuffs. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Forceally Commodore
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:40 am Post subject: |
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That's all fine and good, but I'm asking about a rope. A simple length of rope. What the Ewoks used to bind Han and the others to branches before hauling them to their village.
And it might have been against Threepio's programming to impersonate a divinity, but I don't recall him protesting the Ewoks giving him the divine treatment - carrying him along on a wooden palanquin, so as to speak. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14034 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Based on RL, the thicker the rope, the stronger it is.. So it depends.. IIRC someone tied up with say 1 inch thick rope, needs to push upwards of 600lb a sq in, to break it. So rather than STR to get out, how's about Dex to try and wiggle free. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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KageRyu Commodore
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Also, in addition to Garhkal's not on thickness, if used to bind someone it is often looped a few times, so every doubling of loops should ad +1D to strength - additionally with Rope it is often less about the strength of the rope and more about the quality of the knots -can a captive slip out or undo them?
Just some thoughts. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14034 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 1:18 am Post subject: |
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You also have to consider HOW they are tied up? IS it to something? Are they spread eagled to where they can't GET leverage, other than by 'pulling in'? Are they hung upside down? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Glelukun Cadet
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Joined: 29 Jan 2024 Posts: 11 Location: Birmingham, UK
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:53 am Post subject: 🪢⛓️ |
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At first the OP proposal, that rope should be much weaker than binders, made perfect sense to me, but on reflection I’m not sure we need to take it precisely as a given. Well-made rope is pretty tough stuff, putting up with gales on sailing ships, etc. Why did we come up with handcuffs? I’m not 100% sure it’s just that folks whose hands were tied with rope were constantly muscling out, it’s more down to a wide combination of factors. Others that come to mind are
- Long term durability: if your prisoner finds a stray nail or splinter, or their pal comes along with a blade, it takes far, far longer to wear away at metal restraints.
- Convenience: you don’t need to be good at knots etc, or take much time, to clap someone in irons, get them out or reposition them.
- Specificity/security: anyone can come along and untie/cut a rope, but perhaps only the gaoler has the matching key to this set of cuffs.
- Safety: (unfortunately not the highest priority on a stormtrooper’s mind...) rope bindings generally need to be tighter to do their job due to their inherent material flexibility, and are more likely to cut off circulation etc
So I think we could be justified in saying that when it comes to tearing loose from your restraints with raw physical power, there might not be that much of a practical difference between sturdy ropes and standard binders, and 5D pure strength might still be appropriate — especially in a pulp adjacent setting like Star Wars, where a character bursting free from their bonds is unlikely, but feels like it might sometimes make sense (say, if they’re inspired by the power of the Force.)
As other folks are mentioning too, context could come into it when considering assigning difficulty, possibly in more dynamic ways than with standard issue binders. Are they bound up like a pretzel in a stress position or simply with their wrists in front of them? was the silver-tongued scoundrel knocked unconscious and tied up, or did they work on their captor with a lot of distracting patter while the knots were being fastened? etc. _________________ "Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. [...] Remember this. Try."
— The Trail of Political Consciousness, Karis Nemik |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: 🪢⛓️ |
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Glelukun wrote: | At first the OP proposal, that rope should be much weaker than binders, made perfect sense to me, but on reflection I’m not sure we need to take it precisely as a given. Well-made rope is pretty tough stuff, putting up with gales on sailing ships, etc. Why did we come up with handcuffs? I’m not 100% sure it’s just that folks whose hands were tied with rope were constantly muscling out, it’s more down to a wide combination of factors. Others that come to mind are. |
IIRC many reasons for why cuffs were created/
A) Metal is harder to break through/cut through
B) its harder to fray, and wears easier than rope
C) can't get rope burns
D) Can't be burned off
E) easier to carry than 50ft rope. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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KageRyu Commodore
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I feel obligated to point out, Star Wars D6 is meant to simulate cinematic action adventure, and I think we are all, including me, overthinking this and making it too crunchy.
I would just suggest setting a difficulty to escape the ropes, based on type and quality of rope, and situational modifiers (how tied up). Say Easy for weak rope or poorly tied up, Moderate for good quality rope tied by someone somewhat competent, Difficult for someone with good knowledge of ropes and knots, and Heroic for someone who is an expert in Kinbaku.
I feel the D6 motto should be "Keep it quick, Keep it fun." _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Which skill (or attribute) do you see being used for that roll off? Some ropes/knots would be easier for say someone trying to agile wriggle their way out, but strong arming it would make the knot Tighter.. While others would be the other way around. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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KageRyu Commodore
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Which skill (or attribute) do you see being used for that roll off? Some ropes/knots would be easier for say someone trying to agile wriggle their way out, but strong arming it would make the knot Tighter.. While others would be the other way around. |
As I do not have access to my books right now I really could not say for certain. This was something that came up in the Non-SW D6 I last ran from 2006-2008 but I do not think the skills that were used are part of official SW REUP. The abbreviated skill definitions were something like:
Roping & Rigging(TECH)- The knowledge of getting the best use out of ropes, chains, cables, pulleys, winches, and knots.
Contort(DEX)- The skill and knowledge to twist, contort, and wriggle in ways that can be useful to get free of bonds, cuffs, restraints, and similar devices that physically hold someone in place, or to wriggle and squeeze through tight, confining, or restrictive passages or gaps. This does not include manipulating locks, which is covered under security systems.
I think there is a skill in SW similar to contort, but I have no way to look it up currently. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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Forceally Commodore
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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KageRyu wrote: | garhkal wrote: | Which skill (or attribute) do you see being used for that roll off? Some ropes/knots would be easier for say someone trying to agile wriggle their way out, but strong arming it would make the knot Tighter.. While others would be the other way around. |
As I do not have access to my books right now I really could not say for certain. This was something that came up in the Non-SW D6 I last ran from 2006-2008 but I do not think the skills that were used are part of official SW REUP. The abbreviated skill definitions were something like:
Roping & Rigging(TECH)- The knowledge of getting the best use out of ropes, chains, cables, pulleys, winches, and knots.
Contort(DEX)- The skill and knowledge to twist, contort, and wriggle in ways that can be useful to get free of bonds, cuffs, restraints, and similar devices that physically hold someone in place, or to wriggle and squeeze through tight, confining, or restrictive passages or gaps. This does not include manipulating locks, which is covered under security systems.
I think there is a skill in SW similar to contort, but I have no way to look it up currently. |
The closest I can think of is the Force power contort/escape. It allows Jedi to contort their bodies in ways that are usually painful in order to escape bindings, but the power includes blocking out the pain. That was what Kyp Durron did to fit into that escape pod before sending the Sun Crusher into a black hole along with the Death Star prototype. Did you watch Lethal Weapon 2? At the beginning of the movie, Riggs was in a straight-jacket and said he could get out of it. He did that by dislocating his shoulder, and once he got the jacket off, he slammed his shoulder into the wall to get it back to normal. Contort/escape would have allowed Riggs to do that and suppress the pain as well. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Forceally wrote: | That's all fine and good, but I'm asking about a rope. |
The point was to provide context and scaling for others to more accurately estimate how strong a rope would be. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16178 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Forceally wrote: | The closest I can think of is the Force power contort/escape. It allows Jedi to contort their bodies in ways that are usually painful in order to escape bindings, but the power includes blocking out the pain. |
I've seen this in other systems, where it's actually a skill. That's something that might be worth porting over, maybe as a Dex skill, with Contort/Escape providing bonuses. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:20 am Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Forceally wrote: | The closest I can think of is the Force power contort/escape. It allows Jedi to contort their bodies in ways that are usually painful in order to escape bindings, but the power includes blocking out the pain. |
I've seen this in other systems, where it's actually a skill. That's something that might be worth porting over, maybe as a Dex skill, with Contort/Escape providing bonuses. |
The following is from D6 Adventure:
Nikola Vrtis wrote: | contortion: Escaping from otherwise secure physical bonds by twisting, writhing, and contorting the body.
...
Contortion (Reflexes)
The chart below contains sample difficulty numbers for escaping from various kinds of restraints. Modify the difficulty based on the circumstances of the escape, such as the conditions the character works under or specially designed restraints. The character may not use this skill if completely immobilized. If in multiple restraints, the character must make a separate roll for each one. A Critical Failure indicates that the character has pulled a muscle (and he does his Strength Damage to himself). The gamemaster decides whether he may try again.
Note that this skill does not substitute for the lockpicking skill. The character may be able to pull his arms over his head to use his hands, but he may not be able to slip out of the handcuffs unless they are improperly secured.
Sample Restraints / Difficulty
Ropes / 13
Wires, chain / 15
Handcuffs / 16
Straitjacket / 18 |
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