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A Force attribute?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAybe the problem isn't with the Force sight, but with the Miriluk? If they were blind as a species they might not have had a concept for color, and just percieved things based on thier proximity and shape.

Color, is an entirely visual characteristic, and so probably didn't have any meaning to a blind species. It would be like trying to decribe flavor to someone who lacks a sense of taste,

THe Miraklu might detect variances in the light spectrum bouncing off objects, but don't associate that with color per say, just energy emissions.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Force Sight were strictly a Miraluka trait, I might agree, but since Force Sight is described as a general Force power, of which Miraluka are particularly adept, the implication then becomes that the limitation is in the Force, not a particular species of user.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
If Force Sight were strictly a Miraluka trait, I might agree, but since Force Sight is described as a general Force power, of which Miraluka are particularly adept, the implication then becomes that the limitation is in the Force, not a particular species of user.[/quote

But the description of the power specfically states that:
[quote="Wookieepedia]The Miraluka relied on this power constantly to compensate for their physical blindness. They could not perceive colors but could distinguish organics (even dead) and their alignment from the surrounding environment by their characteristic aura.


So the description implies that the Miraluka couldn't perceive colors-not that it was a limitation of the power.
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Tupteq
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:

So the description implies that the Miraluka couldn't perceive colors-not that it was a limitation of the power.


So, maybe they "see" colors, but they don't understand them in the way similar to other species (as you said, they see energy emissions).

Leon the Lion wrote:
Not being able to read computer screens with the reason defined as not seeing color sounds like an interesting limitation, but it seems a real can of worms if examined logically.


OK, let's think more about this, logically.
If they can see written text (datapads, screens, books) and most of objects are translucent for them, they could be able to do pretty amazing things like reading from datapads not directed toward them or even reading a closed paper book (they don't need the light and objects are translucent to them).
Adding to this xray vision, they are perfect spies (they can read secrets documents in closed briefcase), security agents (they would find any concealed weapon), natural CQB masters etc. Imba Smile[/quote]
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tupteq wrote:



So, maybe they "see" colors, but they don't understand them in the way similar to other species (as you said, they see energy emissions).



Something like that. Things like "rud", "blue" and "orange" just don't have any meaning to them. Like how some animals see in a different spectrum than we do, and others are color blind.

Tupteq wrote:

OK, let's think more about this, logically.
If they can see written text (datapads, screens, books) and most of objects are translucent for them, they could be able to do pretty amazing things like reading from datapads not directed toward them or even reading a closed paper book (they don't need the light and objects are translucent to them).
Adding to this xray vision, they are perfect spies (they can read secrets documents in closed briefcase), security agents (they would find any concealed weapon), natural CQB masters etc. Imba Smile


Well, logically, it also follows that proximity probably plays a big factor here. It is probably easier to perceive the text written on a screen right in front of them, than the text of a screen on the opposite side of the room with lots of other stuff that acts as clutter. They can probably get overwhelmed in data and have to work to try and pick out the important stuff from all the background readings.

Since Miraluka are blind, somebody would have to teach them how to read before they could get much use out of this. In game terms, I'd say just how much information they can get out of their readings would depending on how well they do on their PER or Sense rolls.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this discussion is no longer about a Force attribute, perhaps it should be relocated to a new topic.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Since this discussion is no longer about a Force attribute, perhaps it should be relocated to a new topic.


Hold the comlink!
Since we are adding a FCE attribute, we probably should consider how that would factor into the Miraluk's Force Sight ability. It would seem to me that they would use that attribute and that Force Sight would be the power that they get with thier 1D in FCE.

So that makes this on topic.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if that were what we were discussing (as opposed to trying to justify why the Force is color blind), then we would be on topic. But we aren't, so we're not.

Discussion of the specifics of Force Sight, whether it is a Miraluka-only trait or a general Force power that they specialize in, should be outside the scope of this topic, as not everyone will want to include both in their SWU. As such, the specifics of Force Sight should be hammered out in another topic, and done so in a manner general enough that it can be used either under the RAW or under the proposed Force attribute.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've moved the discussion on Miraluka and Force Sight here, though I do appreciate the efforts to keep it related to the thread at hand, atgxtg. Smile

I don't know if it is possible, but it would be awesome if a Moderator was able to move posts from one topic to the other (though being intertwined as they often are, that could end up being confusing, too).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some additional thoughts:

Cybernetics & the Force Attribute: It is established in the canon that the extensive cybernetic replacements Anakin received negatively affected his ability to use the Force. While I know the existing Cyber Point system increases a character's vulnerability to the Dark Side, I have never felt that this was accurate (except maybe in the case of elective cybernetic enhancement).

What I would suggest instead is to apply Cyber Points as negative penalties to a character's Force Attribute, in that each Cyber Point reduces a character's Force Attribute by 1 pip. If a character's Force is reduced to below 1D by Cyber Point penalties, they lose the ability to use any Force skills or powers.

For instance, in Anakin's case, if he started with a Force of 7D, his cybernetic replacement of 2 hands, 2 arms, 2 legs, his lungs (1 point for both) and possibly his heart would reduce his Force Attribute by 8 pips, to 4D+1, and lowering all of his Force Skills by a similar amount. He was still relatively powerful, but no longer had the singular connection to the Force that he used to have. A character with a more normal Force of 3D who received full body cybernetics would be reduced to 0D+1 and no longer be able to use his Force skills or powers.

EU and Prequel Species: A couple alien species have come to mind recently as being naturally Force Sensitive. Here are my thoughts:

Miralukan - Because being able to use Force Sight is a species trait, Miralukans will have a Force min/max of 1D/3D, but they must select Force Sight as their first Attribute power.

Korun (Mace Windu's Near-Human species) - Per Wookieepedia, Koruns are all naturally Force Sensitive and are all relatively resistant to poisons, Koruns will have a Force min/max of 1D/3D, but they must select Detoxify Poison as their first Attribute power.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Korun (Mace Windu's Near-Human species) - Per Wookieepedia, Koruns are all naturally Force Sensitive and are all relatively resistant to poisons, Koruns will have a Force min/max of 1D/3D, but they must select Detoxify Poison as their first Attribute power.


In the "you learn something new every day" category, I must admit I had no idea Mace Windu was anything but Human! Shocked
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
In the "you learn something new every day" category, I must admit I had no idea Mace Windu was anything but Human! Shocked

Me neither! I spend way too much time reading Wookieepedia and I never came across that!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I have come across in the EU is the implication that Force Sensitives tend to live longer than average for their species. Should there be a rule to that effect?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. During character creation, the player submits the PC to the GM for review, including a character age. The GM says yes or no. There doesn't need to be a rule for every little thing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
No. During character creation, the player submits the PC to the GM for review, including a character age. The GM says yes or no. There doesn't need to be a rule for every little thing.

Seems fair. Apart from that, do you have any problems with my Cyber Points rules, or the species notes?
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