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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Star Wars Stuff Reply with quote

I've got questions....

1*. I'm re-watching Return of the Jedi. In the opening scene, when Vader arrives at the Death Star, he is met by Commander Jerjerrod. If you look at all the troops lined up as Vader's honor guard, there are several officers of higher rank standing at attention, off to the side of Vader and Jerjerrod walking up the middle.

Wouldn't you think an Admiral or a General would be in charge of constructing the Death Star II?



2. This movie is the first to show Luke in his X-Wing in a non-Combat situation. Wouldn't you think that taking the X-Wing everywhere just screams, "Hey! I'm a Rebel!" I mean, with all the seedy people in Mos Eisely, no one would send a message to the Empire--or just tell the local authorities--that an Alliance fighter is in a docking bay?

Or, maybe Luke parked out in the desert by himself.



3. More of a comment than a question. Damn, I hate that stupid blue elephant alien.



4. And...to tie this all to the RPG....

Boy, old Boba Fett sure is having a bad time on this game session, huh? He's flipping and floppin' all over the place, straight down the Sarlacc's gullet. He's bricking some crucial rolls.





*In the novel and in the Imperial Sourcebook for D6, Jerjerrod is a Moff, though Vader refers to him as a Commander. That could be to Jerjerrod being a base commander--hit position, not his rank--but the rank tabs on this chest indicate a Commander.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: Star Wars Stuff Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I've got questions....

1... In the novel and in the Imperial Sourcebook for D6, Jerjerrod is a Moff, though Vader refers to him as a Commander. That could be to Jerjerrod being a base commander--hit position, not his rank--but the rank tabs on this chest indicate a Commander.

Exactly. His position is commander of the Death Star, but his rank was Moff, probably of the sector Endor was in. In RO and ANH, a Grand Moff was commander of the Death Star. In universe, Jerjerrod was probably just in charge of it under its construction. Maybe if he had done well with its construction he would have been promoted to Grand Moff and taken command of it when it was completed. If construction went poorly then maybe he would have demoted by Force choke and replaced with another Moff. Out of universe, he probably was only a Moff because he wasn't supposed to be a menacing antagonist like Tarkin was. He was supposed to be the younger, nervous and fearful guy who was maybe in over his head and a minor foil character for Vader and the Emperor.

I don't pay much attention to costuming details like rank insignia myself, but I've read that an infamous costuming error occurred in the production of RotJ in which all Imperial officers have the same rank, so that could be why Moff has an erroneous rank insignia. Perhaps George never corrected it with CG in all his revisions. You know, adding more rocks to R2's hiding spot on Tatooine was a higher priority. Rolling Eyes

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
2... Or, maybe Luke parked out in the desert

We have a winner. The X-Wing and Falcon were parked out in the desert, Naboo cruiser style. There is a deleted scene showing the heroes getting back to their ships in a sandstorm after they destroyed Jabba's sail barge at the Sarlaac Pit.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
4. Boy, old Boba Fett sure is having a bad time on this game session, huh? He's flipping and floppin' all over the place, straight down the Sarlacc's gullet. He's bricking some crucial rolls.

Boba Fett's ultimate purpose in Star Wars is slapstick comedy. It wasn't ineffective. I distinctly remember my original theatrical viewing of RotJ in my childhood where the entire audience erupted into laughter at Boba Fett's demise. In light of RotJ, it's hard for me to understand why Boba Fett is such a fan fave character. My only hypothesis comes from TESB not having Boba Fett do much of anything but stand around and look cool. He had the potential for awesomeness, but never actually lived up to that. I always felt that the EU portrayal of Fett as the best bounty hunter in the galaxy was way off the mark. Jango Fett is the Fett we always wanted but never got, a bad@ss who could go toe to toe with a Jedi Knight. The cloned apple fell far from the tree.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Star Wars Stuff Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In light of RotJ, it's hard for me to understand why Boba Fett is such a fan fave character.


I'm sure his looks helped. He is bad-@$$ looking, and I think his armor design has intrigued fans from day one.

But I had read that Boba Fett was a freebie action figure, or one of the first action figures..or something along those lines. That lots of SW fans got Boba Fett as their first action figure after TESB came out, and that's what made him such a fan favorite.

I've also read that George was kinda peeved that such a minor character who barely had a name and only a few lines became so popular--that he insisted that the character get killed in RotJ.

Not sure if that's true---I just remember reading it in a magazine somewhere over the years.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, that whole skiff scene seems to be a slapstick affair. Not a single thing that happens seems to be on purpose (even the "success rolls": it's as if the rolls themselves were all 1s except for the wild die, which exploded 7 or 8 times per roll for the heroes, but otherwise would have been a major failure).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boba Fett was singled out for no disintegrations by Vader, is the only person in the galaxy able to track the Falcon including the entire might of Vader and Death squadron, Fett talks back to Vader, he fends off Leia and Chewie, he's the only person in Jabba's palace not to freak out when a disguised Leia pulls the thermal detonator, the ladies love him, and he goes mano-a-mano with Luke and nearly wins.

Yes, his death is ignoble, but every moment he's on screen before that he is awesome.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possibility, though unlikely given then Empire... Jerjerrod might have had that combination of staff rank, family connections, and technical competency that made him a good commander for the Death Star project. 4D in Knowledge, Perception, and Technical, maybe with some Engineering skills to go with Command (he might not be the best engineer around, but construction won't be delayed because they need a left-handed hydrospanner)
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GG1 says that Jerjerrod was a desk general, promoted to Moff, because he was someone Palpy could control. Yet, his rank tabs still indicate Commander. And, he passes some Generals standing at attention while talking to Vader.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a story blurb in the Shadows of the Empire WEG Sourcebook where Jerrjerrod is leaving Palpatine's throne room after a meeting with him and runs into a rival officer who mocks Jerrjerrod for being a desk jockey. Jerrjerrod replies out loud that he's just a servant of the Empire willing to do the non-glamorous jobs that the Emperor assigns him for the good of the Empire. The other guy walks away, presumably for his own meeting with the Emperor while Jerrjerrod smirks to himself as he's finally is going to get the respect he deserves as the Emperor just assigned him to be in charge of constructing the second Death Star. And the thing is, if Jerrjerrod wasn't one of those quietly competent Imperial officers, Palpatine would never have assigned him to such an important project, so Jerrjerrod's glee seems justified.

Out-of-universe, I think Whill has the right of it. The Imperial rank insignias have absolutely no pattern to them whatsoever so it's useless to try to use them them for any ranking system at all. In fact, it's on record that the costuming department didn't pay any attention to the rank insignia in ANH and ROTJ with at least one person saying that they only have any consistency in TESB. Hell, the badges the Rancor Pit uses for its post count is WAY more accurate, but at least it has the benefit of hindsight since even George didn't bother to make a list of actual Imperial ranks and try to form a consistent system. Like Whill said, maybe adding more rocks to R2's hiding place in the Jundland Wastes was a bigger priority. Confused
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Boba Fett stuff Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I had read that Boba Fett was a freebie action figure, or one of the first action figures..or something along those lines. That lots of SW fans got Boba Fett as their first action figure after TESB came out, and that's what made him such a fan favorite.

Gah, kids these days. Boba Fett was technically the first TESB action figure, available in 1979 for free by mailing in so many proofs-of-purchase from ANH action figures. In 1980 Boba was available in stores with several other TESB figures. If there were a lot of kids that got Boba Fett after TESB came out, I don't specifically remember that but maybe they were jealous of the friends that already had him for a year from the free mail-in offer. My old poor neighborhood was right beside new rich neighborhood, and the rich kid who lived in the house closest to us had every ANH action figure and five free Boba Fetts. We didn't have many figures but my brother and I had scrapped-up the proofs-of-purchases to get one free Boba Fett in 1979. I still have it, and it is one of my most cherished Star Wars collectibles since I didn't have much back in the Star Wars vintage age.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I've also read that George was kinda peeved that such a minor character who barely had a name and only a few lines became so popular--that he insisted that the character get killed in RotJ.

Not sure if that's true---I just remember reading it in a magazine somewhere over the years.

My understanding is not that Lucas was peeved, but rather just very surprised that Boba Fett became so popular based on his minimal role in the films. Of course Lucas was there from the beginning of concept, when Boba Fett's armor was white and he was a super-commando stormtrooper for the Empire. From development to the finished product, Lucas may have just lost sight of the initial cool of the Fett's look and imagined potential as perceived by the fans. There's no reason for Lucas to be mad about his popularity, and if he was then he probably wouldn't have given us Jango, the Fett we fans always wanted but never got. Lucas didn't have to do that. Boba being a clone of Jango creates something of a discontinuity because the clone is far from the bad@ssery of his father.

Kytross wrote:
Boba Fett was singled out for no disintegrations by Vader, is the only person in the galaxy able to track the Falcon including the entire might of Vader and Death squadron, Fett talks back to Vader, he fends off Leia and Chewie, he's the only person in Jabba's palace not to freak out when a disguised Leia pulls the thermal detonator, the ladies love him, and he goes mano-a-mano with Luke and nearly wins.

Thanks for posting this. I think you present some good points for 'the case for Boba'. Vader singled Boba out for a reason, Boba does sort of talk back to Vader, and Boba did keep his cool in the face of a thermal detonator...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Boba Fett stuff Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Yes, his death is ignoble, but every moment he's on screen before that he is awesome.

I find that to be a very romanticized thing to say, but it's a quite common sentiment in Star Wars fandom. I can appreciate the feeling behind it because I have felt that too. Boba looks so cool I wanted him to be awesome. As a fan I felt satisfied when Jango turned out to be everything I had wanted Boba to be.

Kytross wrote:
he fends off Leia and Chewie

I'm completely blanking on what scene you are referring on here. I even watched this video for review. Does this compilation leave out a classic Fett scene I am forgetting in my old age?

Kytross wrote:
is the only person in the galaxy able to track the Falcon including the entire might of Vader and Death squadron

True, but I'm still not too impressed by this. He seems to have "tracked" Han when all others failed only by the virtue of guessing Han's strategy to disappear. So Boba floated in space and waited for the garbage dump, saw Han take off, plotted their likely trajectory to Bespin, and radioed it Vader's fleet so they could get there before the injured Falcon would. Boba Fett is no dummy for sure, but this is probably the most accomplished thing Boba Fett does in the classic trilogy and it doesn't really make him stand him out as "awesome" to me.

Kytross wrote:
he's the only person in Jabba's palace not to freak out when a disguised Leia pulls the thermal detonator

True, but he wasn't at point blank range to it and he was one of the only ones there wearing full-body armor.

Kytross wrote:
the ladies love him

Lucas' Special Edition did add the shot of him flirting with a dancer who I believe was smiling, so at least one alien lady likes him. It could just be the mystique of the armor and she may not like what she sees when he takes off the helmet.

Kytross wrote:
he goes mano-a-mano with Luke and nearly wins.

I am quite certain I am not remembering the same film you are!
    1. Fett jet-packs to the skiff and Luke immediately destroys his rifle.
    2. Luke got distracted by Chewie getting wounded from from Jabba's goons and falling on Han, so Fett wraps Luke up in his cord...
    3. But Luke hold is holding a lightsaber so easily cuts the cord, and Boba gets stunned by a nearby blast.
    4. Luke jumps over to the next skiff to deal with the goons. Boba wakes up, gets up, slowly aims his wrist blaster at Luke, and... misses twice. This is only a few meters away, so short range if not point blank. Luke wasn't even looking at Boba and busy with goons. There was no dodge. Boba just missed.
    5. Han accidentally hits Boba's jet pack, causing it to go off. Boba flies towards the sail barge, yelling with arms flailing wildly, bounces off the sail barge and rolls down into the Sarlaac Pit with another yell. Burp.
I'm not trying to burst your bubble and ruin the character for you, but "awesome" is not a word I could use to describe any of that. I can still see "nearly wins" because all Boba had to do was not miss shooting Luke at short range to maybe win.

Kytross wrote:
Boba Fett was singled out for no disintegrations by Vader
Kytross wrote:
Fett talks back to Vader

In light of all the other not-so-awesome things Boba Fett did, there are other explanations for these things. Capturing fugitives alive would often be more difficult than just killing them, so maybe Boba has a reputation for going the easier route and taking the 'dead or alive' bounties and just killing them. As far as Boba mouthing off to Vader that he needed Han alive for this bounty, Lando actually yelled at Vader in the same movie and only got a vague threat about altering the deal further. My impression is that Boba Fett has a history of taking contracts from Vader. It could be because Vader knows Boba is a Jango-clone and still has a high estimation of Fett clones based on his ample experience with them in the Clone Wars. Maybe most of the jobs are dead or alive (or just wanted dead) so Vader wanted to point out this one was different. Maybe Boba was even playfully getting back at Vader for the disintegration comment because he delivered Han and Leia alive so was pointing out that he needed Han alive for Jabba's bounty.

I'm not saying Boba was a mook (like Greedo), despite his ignoble slapstick demise. Boba could have been a generally reliable bounty hunter, but not the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. I think the most awesome thing Boba ever did in film was as a kid when he almost blasted Obi-Wan with the Slave-1 on Kamino.

To address the discontinuity of Boba not living up the bad@ssery of Jango, I think that maybe he suffers from injuries than never fully healed and/or nurses a spice addiction. To account for his reputation being more awesome than he seems to be, maybe Boba secretly enlists the aid of former clonetroopers with duplicate sets of armor who follow different leads, greatly increasing his odds of tracking down fugitives. Maybe there is a "Team Boba Fett" and the clones are nearly identical genetically to him so they get away with most of the galaxy believing they are only one person.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Boba Fett stuff Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
...maybe Boba secretly enlists the aid of former clonetroopers with duplicate sets of armor who follow different leads, greatly increasing his odds of tracking down fugitives. Maybe there is a "Team Boba Fett" and the clones are nearly identical genetically to him so they get away with most of the galaxy believing they are only one person.
That would explain why after falling into the Sarlacc "Boba" keeps showing up in so many EU comics and stories. And that would be a different explanation for Jodo Kast.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Boba Fett stuff Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
That would explain why after falling into the Sarlacc "Boba" keeps showing up in so many EU comics and stories. And that would be a different explanation for Jodo Kast.


I recently read a Marvel comic (issue 81- Jawas of Doom), the first to continue the story after Return of the Jedi. Boba Fett is spit out by the Sarlacc, and he lands in the sand, unconscious, beat to hell. It looks like the digestive juices of the beast had worked on him a bit. He's not in good shape at all.

Jawas come to scavenge the site, and they think Fett, encased in armor as he is, with all the organic Sarlacc guts on him, is a droid. So, they take him into their crawler, thinking to use him as parts or fix him up to run and sell.

Han and Leia encounter the crawler (through some other story I won't bore you with), and Fett finally pops out of it. Han makes it out of the crawler, but Boba Fett doesn't, as it plunges (after much fighting) back into the Sarlacc's pit and blows up--with Fett inside.

It's like a coda. He was dead...and, yep, he's still dead.

At least, in the Marvel comics.

It was Dark Horse that revived him, I believe.

They revived Darth Maul, too, giving him a spider-like cyborg body from the waste down.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Boba Fett stuff Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
...maybe Boba secretly enlists the aid of former clonetroopers with duplicate sets of armor who follow different leads, greatly increasing his odds of tracking down fugitives. Maybe there is a "Team Boba Fett" and the clones are nearly identical genetically to him so they get away with most of the galaxy believing they are only one person.

That would explain why after falling into the Sarlacc "Boba" keeps showing up in so many EU comics and stories. And that would be a different explanation for Jodo Kast.

Yep. I've thought that maybe Jodo Kast had even been a member of Team Fett who decided to go solo.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, you're right, Leia and Chewie were shooting at the Slave 1, not at Boba Fett directly. I was writing from memory and it's been a few years since I watched ESB. I'm sorry about that.

Your perspective seems jaded to me. I could be wrong, that's just how it comes across to me. Boba Fett succeeds at everything we see him attempt to do, except for his fight with Luke. Even in his fight with Luke, he does far better than everyone else there.

Yes, he missed his two blaster shots, but as a GM I would have upped that difficulty level a bit. They're on two different Skiffs, both of them moving. Boba Fett is probably stunned from his fall, putting him at -1D. From how small Luke is compared to Boba, I'd guess he was at least 10-15 meters away. Luke is only a little bigger than Boba's Helmet in that part of the scene, so it could be further, but we'll go with 10-15 meters, medium range with the wrist laser. That's 11-15 difficulty, plus both skiffs moving, so +5-10 difficulty giving a GM the discretion of 16-25 difficulty. Boba has 6D in armor weapons. Stunned puts him at 5D. 5D x 3.5 average = 17.5 average roll. He missed, widely. Bad roll.

We don't see the effect of the second shot. Maybe he hit, but Luke deflected? Maybe he missed again. Stun effects would have been gone, he'd be rolling 6D. Did the skiffs move farther away? We don't know. We aren't shown. I can't do a detailed write up of something I can't see.

Keep in mind that Luke's skill level is good enough to let him take down Vader later in the movie. At this point, he is one of the best lightsaber fighters in the series. Probably from a combination of innate talent, training, and the help of Obi-Wan and possibly Qui-Gon Jinn and any other force immortals/ascended masters. But I digress.

If you're going to compare Boba's fight against Jedi to Jango's fight against Jedi then you have to compare the fight with Obi-Wan and the fight with Mace Windu. Jango didn't fair too well in that second fight. That Luke is able to defeat Vader at this point arguably puts him closer to Mace Windu's level of skill, if not beyond it. Luke certainly treats Boba with the same casual attitude that Mace treated Jango.

It is the interactions with Vader that define Fett in ESB. Vader interacts with four subordinates in ESB. Ozzel, Piett, Needa, and Boba Fett. He kills Ozzel and Needa for failing him. Piett is noticeably frightened of Vader. Fett stands up to Vader and talks back to him. No one else talks back to Vader in the entire series without getting some sort of reprisal. The officer on the Death Star in ANH gets force choked. Leia gets interrogated with drugs. Lando makes a plea to Vader that Vader was changing the deal and Vader tells him too bad and threatens Lando. Fett talks back to Vader and Vader promises to compensate him. Fett is different than all the rest of these characters, Vader treats him with respect. That's excellent characterization, and great storytelling.

Boba Fett is one of five named antagonists in the OT that directly interact with the protagonists. Vader is the main villain through the series. Tarkin is the major villain in the first film, but only interacts with a captured Leia. Jabba is a threat through the films but we only see him in RotJ, and a cut scene in ANH reintroduced in the special editions. He is a lethal threat but immobile. And there's the Emperor facing down Luke. Like Jabba, the Emperor does not chase down our heroes, he brings the heroes to himself. Both are viable threats, but neither is imminent. Vader and Fett are the only two imminent and viable threats to our heroes.

There may be a better word than imminent for what I'm trying to say, but I can't think of one. Unexpected? These two can meet the heroes anywhere, not just in their lairs. They are 'in the field.'

What this leaves us with are two villains from the OT to use in most of our playing and imagining between 1983 and 1999. So yeah, I think the fans may have obsessed over both of them a bit too much.

The stats West End Games gives him makes Boba Fett the third most lethal villain in the series, after Vader and the Emperor. At 9D Fett has the highest blaster skill of any villain, only Han has a higher ranged weapon skill, blaster of 9D+1 and heavy plaster pistol specialization of 10D. Chewbacca also has a bowcaster skill of 9D.

Do I think Boba's been blown out of proportion by the fans? Yes, definitely.

Do I think he's been blown out of proportion by the EU books? Without a doubt. Did you read the bounty hunter trilogy? I didn't bother to finish it. It was a Boba Fett love fest.

Would we have ever had Jango if the fans hadn't blown Boba out of proportion? No. Emphatically no. Boba Fett was never supposed to be in that cut scene with Jabba in ANH, he was pasted in with computers to service the fans. Jango is a continuation of that fan service.

Was Boba a great villain who I loved to watch on screen? Yes. Oh yes indeed.

I guess what I would change my argument to is that he's the second best villain in the OT. I'll grant you that he's overrated in the EU, but that doesn't make him less of great villain on screen.

I had a lot of fun doing this write up. Cheers!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It was Dark Horse that revived him, I believe.

They revived Darth Maul, too, giving him a spider-like cyborg body from the waste down.
Oh Dark Horse was responsible for that idiocy? I wish fanboys would just let it go when a kool villain dies. Yeah, Maul was the villain. Yeah he was cool and scary. But he died. Get over it. Rolling Eyes

Kytross wrote:
Your perspective seems jaded to me. I could be wrong, that's just how it comes across to me. Boba Fett succeeds at everything we see him attempt to do, except for his fight with Luke. Even in his fight with Luke, he does far better than everyone else there.
Everyone else Luke fights are nameless mooks. Call me jaded too, but I agree with Whill.

Quote:
It is the interactions with Vader that define Fett in ESB.
My impression from the films is that Fett is just a bit cooler than Bossk and the other bounty hunters in the lineup. The Imperials don't seem more afraid of Fett than the other bounty hunter scum. They seem to find them more or less equally despicable and scary. Fett gets singled out in the film for dramatic reasons since he's the only one of the lineup we're going to see again in this film.

Quote:
Boba Fett is one of five named antagonists in the OT that directly interact with the protagonists.
Is that including Greedo?
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