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Rotten From Within
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Rotten From Within Reply with quote

That's how Lucas (Alan Dean Foster) described the Old Republic in the original Star Wars novelization. Rotting from within. Corrupt.

We know at least some of that has played true in the prequels.

But, I also think that we tend to think of the Old Republic as all good guys.

I was thinking today about the new timeline. The Empire only lasted, what, 19 or 20 years, depending on how you count it.

The Captains and Generals and Admirals that we see in the original trilogy can actually remember a time before the Empire. If you are 40, even, during Revenge of the Sith, then you are 60 when ANH happens.

If you were 30--a seasoned Republic officer--you are 50, probably in a command position, during ANH.

The Empire's forces are VAST. That means that the original Republic, at least near the end, wasn't so hunky dory for A LOT OF PEOPLE. Maybe even a Majority of people.




This makes the new timeline easier to swallow. In a sense, it's almost easier to believe that the New Republic would stand on shaky legs and eventually fall. I'm kinda surprised that the New Republic didn't fall earlier.

It also makes sense why a lot of the galaxy will be (supposedly) embracing the First Order.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Rotten From Within Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Empire only lasted, what, 19 or 20 years, depending on how you count it.

I'm pretty sure no one counts it that way. In Legends and Canon, the Empire lasted from RotS (19 BBY) to beyond RotJ (4 ABY), which is over 23 years total. I've known fans who have had a longer Empire in their personal SWUs, but none who have shortened it any.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: Rotten From Within Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Empire only lasted, what, 19 or 20 years, depending on how you count it.

I'm pretty sure no one counts it that way. In Legends and Canon, the Empire lasted from RotS (19 BBY) to beyond RotJ (4 ABY), which is over 23 years total. I've known fans who have had a longer Empire in their personal SWUs, but none who have shortened it any.


To be fair, the Imperial Remnant lasted far longer than just 4 ABY in the Legends timeline. In fact, didn't it even outlast the New Republic and last as a martial oligarchy until 44 ABY and even beyond that as a democracy and then as the Fel Empire in the Legacy timeline? Of course, it wasn't Ol' Palpy's Empire, but still....
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Rotten From Within Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Empire only lasted, what, 19 or 20 years, depending on how you count it.

I'm pretty sure no one counts it that way. In Legends and Canon, the Empire lasted from RotS (19 BBY) to beyond RotJ (4 ABY), which is over 23 years total. I've known fans who have had a longer Empire in their personal SWUs, but none who have shortened it any.

To be fair, the Imperial Remnant lasted far longer than just 4 ABY in the Legends timeline. In fact, didn't it even outlast the New Republic and last as a martial oligarchy until 44 ABY and even beyond that as a democracy and then as the Fel Empire in the Legacy timeline? Of course, it wasn't Ol' Palpy's Empire, but still....

The Empire lasted beyond RotJ in both timelines, which is why I said "over 23 years". My main point was RotS to RotJ alone is 23 years, so the Empire lasted more than 23 years which is not in any way counted to be 19 or 20 years. That is all I was saying.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's reasonable to say that the Empire lasted about 26 years, from 19 BBY to 5 ABY. Per Aftermath: Empire's End, you do have a survival of some Imperial forces after Jakku, but the Empire's presence as a political force after that becomes very sketchy and fringe.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I think it's reasonable to say that the Empire lasted about 26 years, from 19 BBY to 5 ABY.

That timeframe equals 24 years.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
I think it's reasonable to say that the Empire lasted about 26 years, from 19 BBY to 5 ABY.

That timeframe equals 24 years.


Are you sure?

There is the event: The Battle of Yavin.
Something that happened 1-11 months before that battle would be within 0BBY.

Something that happened 1-11 months after that battle would be within 0ABY.

So doesn't 0BBY and 0ABY occupy 2 years worth of time?
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that there was just a year 0, and by convention everything that occurred prior to the Battle is called 0 BBY, and everything after the Battle is called 0 ABY. (The Battle took place in “March”.)
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
I think it's reasonable to say that the Empire lasted about 26 years, from 19 BBY to 5 ABY.

That timeframe equals 24 years.

Are you sure?

There is the event: The Battle of Yavin.
Something that happened 1-11 months before that battle would be within 0BBY.

Something that happened 1-11 months after that battle would be within 0ABY.

So doesn't 0BBY and 0ABY occupy 2 years worth of time?

Yes, I'm sure, but feel free to look it up on Wookieepedia.

Falconer wrote:
My understanding is that there was just a year 0, and by convention everything that occurred prior to the Battle is called 0 BBY, and everything after the Battle is called 0 ABY. (The Battle took place in “March”.)

This is correct. In Legends and Canon, there is only one "Year 0", the year that the BY takes place. When referring to years, in practice BBY and ABY are used to specify whether the event took place before or after BY that year. As Falconer referred to, ANH takes place early in the third month of Year 0.

And having only one Year 0 is the only way the math works out right. In Legends, Luke and Leia were 18.7 years old in ANH, and in Canon where they haven't been as specific on the months things take place in, they are about 19 years old in ANH. Those figures wouldn't work out right if there was a whole entire Year 0 before ANH.

However I'm pretty sure I have seen some things referred to as how many months or days before or after BY which may add to the confusion of the timeline. But for years, 0 BBY and 0 ABY are the same year.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The timeline was maybe the most jarring aspect of the prequels. Everyone and everything was revealed to be quite a bit younger than I would have thought.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea. It would have imo been a little more believable, had the republic crumbled, and the empire rose to power say 30 or so years, ago.. Rather than barely 18 years..
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
The timeline was maybe the most jarring aspect of the prequels. Everyone and everything was revealed to be quite a bit younger than I would have thought.
garhkal wrote:
Yea. It would have imo been a little more believable, had the republic crumbled, and the empire rose to power say 30 or so years, ago
.
I felt that was when I was a kid, but back then we didn't know why/how Darth Vader turned to the the Dark Side, and if you think about it an older Empire doesn't really work.

It should noted that as with the classic films, Lucas was still operating under the narrative premise of not having flashback sequences or big time jumps within the movies. The six films each takes place over the course of 4-9 days. When Lucas plotted out the prequel trilogy story outline, he based it around the fall of Anakin Skywalker who had become a full fledged Jedi Knight before becoming Darth Vader. Lucas has some other narrative requirements such as showing the rise of Palpatine and the Empire, and the Clone War(s).

Episode I: Anakin is separated from his mother as a child and begins his Jedi apprenticeship despite his attachment issue.
Episode II: After a month of nightmares about his mother, she dies in his arms. Anakin begins his path towards the Dark Side and begins a new attachment with a secret forbidden marriage.
Episode III: Anakin has nightmares of his pregnant wife dying in childbirth and fully turns to the Dark Side to prevent it from coming true, which leads to his his wife dying and Anakin believing he caused it to happen.

Lucas had himself adopted three children from a very young age, and he did a lot of research on parental separation. His conclusion was that from an emotional well-being perspective, the most traumatic age for a child to be separated from a parent would be at age 9 or 10. That pinned down Anakin's age in Episode I. To get married in Episode II, Anakin had to be a young adult but not too old to old to still be a padawan. In Episode III, Anakin had to be an age of a young Jedi Knight so 23-25. And Lucas loved the symbolism of the Vader identity existing for as long as his life before he became Vader.

It is very common in the real world for new governments to be the results of wars, so it was a no-brainer to have the Clone Wars be what lead to the Empire, which was not only the downfall of the Republic but also the Jedi Order. If the Clone Wars happened earlier so the Empire started sooner, that would mean Anakin would have had to become Darth Vader sooner. And if Darth Vader existed for years before Luke and Leia were born, that would mean that Anakin's wife would have been impregnated by Anakin after he was already Vader. If she was "kind" as Leia described her (and we all wanted her to be), would she have still been with Anakin after he became evil? Luke and Leia were not going to be the result of Vader raping their mother. How lame would Vader he pretended to be good for years and was only secretly evil while his wife wasn't around? And how old do you want want Padme and Anakin to have been when they became parents? Most parents first become parents in their 20s.

I think what Lucas came up with makes a good amount of sense. The Jedi's ancient enemy returned from the shadows. The Sith exacted its revenge by the Jedi Chosen One leaving the Jedi and joining the Sith, and the Jedi Order was destroyed. But Anakin's children survived the foreseen death of their mother. The only way it really works is if the Empire, the Darth Vader identity, and Luke and Leia are all the same age, so in the end the age of the Empire was ultimately determined by classic trilogy. In Legends and Canon, Luke and Leia were about 19 years old in ANH. I have tweaked the official timeline a bit for my SWU by adding two years to the Clone War, and a year the age of Empire, Luke and Leia so that they are about 20 years old in ANH.
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