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Sequel Trilogy and the Future of SW
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Sutehp
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Joined: 01 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WillTasker wrote:
Quote:
J.J. Abrams is famous for rebooting Star Trek in a way that acknowledges the original timeline and thus didn’t alienate fans.


Um, which Star Trek fans have you talked to about this? Because pretty much anyone who liked the franchise before the 2009 movie, hates everything that follows it to various degrees.


Well, speaking for myself, I absolutely loathed Star Trek 2009 when I saw it for the first time on DVD (I had missed it in the theatre) because of how Spock Prime was sent from the Prime Universe into the Kelvinverse: through a black hole. The first time I saw this movie, I was like: "Wait, black holes don't work that way! They're not gateways to other universes! They don't go anywhere!" Yes, this is a silly reason to hate a movie that is in the science fiction genre, so any attachment to realism is...unrealistic (for want of a better term).

Then when Star Trek Into Darkness came out in 2013, I decided that I'd watch it in the theatre and judge it on its own merits rather than let my opinion of ST 2009 influence me. I made the mistake of looking it up on Wikipedia two days before I went to see it in the theatre and spoiled the reveal that Harrison was actually Khan Noonien Singh. (Like the song says: It's Nobody's Fault But Mine.) I wound up enjoying the movie somewhat more than ST 2009 but I didn't think it was all that great. Good but not great. After two Star Trek movies that I found at least somewhat underwhelming, I decided that I wasn't going to bother watching the next Star Trek movie in the theatre and I'd maybe buy the Bluray and watch it at home.

It wasn't until I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson explain in the new Odyssey: A Spacetime Journey in 2014 that theoretically, black holes actually might lead to alternate universes, that I was able to step back from my irrational bias and enjoy ST 2009 on its own merits. (I've said it before and I'll say it again: When the Most Powerful Nerd In The Universe says something is theoretically possible, you have to take that seriously.)

Then Star Trek Beyond came out and, once again letting my irrational biases get the better of me, I judged the movie just by the title alone ("Star Trek Beyond? Beyond what? That's a crappy, uninspiring title! What the hell is this movie about?") and decided not to bother with seeing it in the theatre and would just add it to my DVD/Bluray collection later once it was available for purchase. Well, once I bought it and put it into my player, I was riveted and enjoyed the whole thing. In fact, I hadn't enjoyed a Star Trek movie so much since Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

Basically my point is, while you will find fans that either love or hate the Star Trek reboot, you'll also find longtime fans like me (I've been watching Star Trek since TOS reruns back in the late 70s, y'all! Yup, I'm old.) whose opinions of the reboot have fluctuated wildly, and even been rehabilitated, since the start back in 2009. I used to hate the reboot, but love it now. And I'll continue to love it so long as the subsequent movie(s) appeal to me as much as Beyond did.

EDIT: And my opinions about the Star Wars sequel trilogy have varied nearly as much considering that I was pretty disappointed in TFA but began to like it with repeated viewings. As for TLJ, it gave me what I thought was the solution to the problem of TFA's "retread" of ANH: go entirely in the opposite direction into the unknown and subvert anything that could look like a retread of TESB. "Think will not go the way you think," indeed. My opinion of TLJ is mixed at this point. Again, I walked out of the theatre disappointed but for different reasons. So it makes me wonder if the makers of the Sequel Trilogy can't win for losing. If I don't like TLJ because the filmakers did exactly what I said I wanted after TFA, doesn't that say more about me than it does about them? Question
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I was just riffing off another poster

I was just joining the conversation. Before this thread, I had heard of the petition of TLJ haters to declare Episode VIII non-canon and I rolled my eyes. But please excuse my shock and dismay at learning there is a widespread movement that Luke should wake up beside Mara Jade in the EU and the previous two saga films are just dreams. Please excuse my shock and dismay at time travel, wormholes and a multiverse are being seriously wished for by Star Wars fans to be in a Star Wars film. That is taking this fan hatred of TLJ to quite ridiculous extremes.

Did you think the prequels should be revealed to be a dream or taking place in another universe? Somehow in all the hatred I have had to endure for the prequels over the years, I have never heard that serious wish for a new film to undo them. Back then it was ok for fans who didn't like certain movies to just personally ignore them. In all the hype leading up to TFA, I never heard any prequel-basher say that they need to establish the prequels never happened right at the beginning of the new film.

I'm sorry but I have never even imagined people would seriously wish for new Star Wars to break genre just because of a minority of fans hate previous films. This is new to me and I am having trouble wrapping my head around this. It's taking fan-hate to a whole new level I have never seen. What happened to each fan defining their own universe and choosing their personal canon? Why can't fans just choose to ignore TLJ like they did Lucas's Special Editions and the Prequels? Why does it now have to be breaking genre to undo past films in the story of future films? It's unheard of and outrageous!

Falconer wrote:
I just don’t see any grounds for calling us a minority. Isn’t it sufficient to say audiences were divided?

I do not associate the word "minority" with any derogative connotations and I certainly did not imply any. I only mean minority in a strictly statistical sense. Less that 50%.

I am the one that used the word minority so this is clearly directed at me. As far as the "grounds" for calling people who hate TLJ so much that they want it to be somehow "undone" in a future movie, my previous post above went into that in detail for the grounds for that: The box office gross makes it completely impossible for the TLJ-haters to be the majority.

Don't miss the point in even me using that word. Less than 50% of viewers disliked TLJ, and not all of those would actually want 'it's a dream' or time travel in a Star Wars movie to undo it. I say again, Lucasfilm should not break genre in a new film to undo TLJ just because less than 50% of the fans want it.

Falconer wrote:
I don’t see the harm in speculation.

I also went into detail regarding the "harm" in my above post. If people have an outrageous expectation for a future film to break genre just to undo a previous film, that expectation not being met is setting up a failed expectation. I have seen unfulfilled expectations nowhere near this outrageous make people quite upset.

Falconer wrote:
Anyway, movies should live up to or exceed expectations, not blame fans for having high expectations.

A movie "blames" fans for something? I don't think that is what you mean, but I'm not sure what you do mean. If you were talking about me, yes, I hereby personally declare fans (who expect 'Episode VIII was just a dream', time travel or other genre-breaking things to be in the next movie and it doesn't happen) to be to blame for their own disappointment. IMO that is a extremely outrageous expectation to have.

Falconer wrote:
Anyway, movies should live up to or exceed expectations

But see, that can't be done because we all have a very wide diversity of expectations. For example, for fans who demand 'it was a dream' or wormholes, if that doesn't happen they will upset. If it does happen, I likely will be upset for Star Wars breaking genre, especially in the end of a trilogy. These are completely exclusive expectations. There will NEVER be ANY Star Wars movie that will live up to EVERYONE's expectations. That expectation is a flat-out impossible expectation to meet.

I am not immune to this expectation disappointment. Remember, I was disappointed there weren't any lightsaber duels in a movie called The Last Jedi. But I do not wish for time travel in the next movie to go back and add one! Don't you see the difference? I think my expectation was quite a reasonable one, like I am sure a lot of your expectations for TLJ were. Wishing for genre-breaking 'it was just a dream' in the next film is an unlikely expectation. Wishing for every fans' individual expectations to all be met is an impossible expectation. Wishing for a lightsaber duel in Episode IX is still a realistic expectation despite the fact there wasn't one in TLJ.

Falconer wrote:
Or would it be better if TFA stands, and only TLJ is a dream?

No, that would not be at all better. Once they break the seal on 'it was just a dream' it doesn't matter how much was just a dream. Anything else could be deemed 'just be a dream' at any time and the movies would lose all meaning. Time travel and the like have never been a part of films before and it would be putting Star Wars into a different genre, mid-trilogy. Saving TFA from the fire would not at all help once Star Wars went this direction.

I've had time travel, parallel universes and wormholes in my Star Wars RPG adventures. But I'm not as creative as movie makers, I don't want to see that in Star Wars films, and I also doubt we will see that in Episode IX. I don't need to undo TLJ because I can just declare it is not in my personal SWU, and move on. I am not owed anything by Disney. Fans who act like Disney reneged on some deal with them come across as excessively negative and deluded.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
WillTasker wrote:
Falconer wrote:
J.J. Abrams is famous for rebooting Star Trek in a way that acknowledges the original timeline and thus didn’t alienate fans.
Um, which Star Trek fans have you talked to about this? Because pretty much anyone who liked the franchise before the 2009 movie, hates everything that follows it to various degrees.

Well, once I bought it and put it into my player, I was riveted and enjoyed the whole thing. In fact, I hadn't enjoyed a Star Trek movie so much since Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

Basically my point is, while you will find fans that either love or hate the Star Trek reboot, you'll also find longtime fans like me (I've been watching Star Trek since TOS reruns back in the late 70s, y'all! Yup, I'm old.) whose opinions of the reboot have fluctuated wildly, and even been rehabilitated, since the start back in 2009. I used to hate the reboot, but love it now. And I'll continue to love it so long as the subsequent movie(s) appeal to me as much as Beyond did.

I'm also a huge Star Trek nerd. It happened in the mid-80s years in between RotJ and the SW 10th Anniversary (which included this RPG). Once I saw the entire TOS in one summer, I saw the first three films on VHS. TVH as my first ST in the theater and I loved it (Star Trek always had a lot of time travel stories, different sub-genre of space opera).

Kinda like Star Wars, I thought Star Trek was dead after the horrible Nemesis and the end of Enterprise. When the reboot was announced I wasn't overjoyed but I was like, sure, why not? I'll give it a shot. ST09 blew my mind and immediately became my fave Trek film. ID was equally awesome. I didn't love Beyond as much the first two new films, but it was still an enjoyable movie. The new series Discovery is back to the Prime Universe and it was really good too. I have friends and know many others who also like both the prime franchise and alternate reality films. This whole old vs. new or 'prime vs. alternate' is a false dichotomy. It's not only one or the other.
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