The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

1e's Haste System
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> First Edition / IAG -> 1e's Haste System Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
griff
Commander
Commander


Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 479
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur.
_________________
"EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

griff wrote:
I concur.

And if you had been just a bit quicker, you could've concurred concurrently.

8)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought on this...

Should it be possible to declare a Concurrent Action as a reaction to something else? Say, for instance, that a Jedi attempts to block a blaster bolt with his lightsaber, but misses. Should he then be allowed to attempt to bring up Absorb/Dissipate Energy with an appropriate Haste penalty?

Another combat possibility for non-Force users. In the Palladium system, they had a back-up save where, if a character took a hit for damage, they could Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact in an attempt to reduce damage. The title is a bit of a mouthful, but I picture a character sent flying through the air from an explosion who, through training and reflexes, twists in mid-air to turn his flight into a more controlled tumble to reduce damage.

Or perhaps a snap-shot with a ranged weapon, where a target doesn't present itself until after the actions have been declared, like a character who was hiding out of sight when the round began, but declared he was going to make a break for it. A character who wished to stop him could declare a snap-shot and attempt to hit him - with appropriate CAP penalties - even though he hadn't declared that he would do this at the beginning of the round.

IMO, this could very easily cross the line into D&D 3.0 Attack of Opportunity territory, but I think there may be something to it with appropriate limits.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Should it be possible to declare a Concurrent Action as a reaction to something else?

I would think so, as long as the character is capable of reacting in more than one way and those reactions are capable of being performed concurrently.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Say, for instance, that a Jedi attempts to block a blaster bolt with his lightsaber, but misses. Should he then be allowed to attempt to bring up Absorb/Dissipate Energy with an appropriate Haste penalty?

I could see allowing that, but in my opinion, the player couldn't react by declaring a parry, failing, and then reacting with Absorb/Dissipate Energy. The player would have to declare all concurrent reactions to a single triggering event at the same time. That means the character would roll the parry and Absorb/Dissipate checks at an extra -2d (-1d MAP for Absorb/Dissipate Energy's Control roll and another -1 CAP for doing it concurrent with parrying).

CRMcNeill wrote:
Another combat possibility for non-Force users. In the Palladium system, they had a back-up save where, if a character took a hit for damage, they could Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact in an attempt to reduce damage. The title is a bit of a mouthful, but I picture a character sent flying through the air from an explosion who, through training and reflexes, twists in mid-air to turn his flight into a more controlled tumble to reduce damage.

This sounds like more an issue of adding other skills to 2d ed.'s list of reaction skills. If you use a skill like d6 Space's Acrobatics skill in your game, I could see letting a player roll that as a reaction to being hit--not as a reaction to being attacked. I wouldn't treat it as an action concurrent with dodging or parrying because it is a reaction to a separate triggering event. But MAPs would apply as normal.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Or perhaps a snap-shot with a ranged weapon, where a target doesn't present itself until after the actions have been declared, like a character who was hiding out of sight when the round began, but declared he was going to make a break for it. A character who wished to stop him could declare a snap-shot and attempt to hit him - with appropriate CAP penalties - even though he hadn't declared that he would do this at the beginning of the round.

IMO, this could very easily cross the line into D&D 3.0 Attack of Opportunity territory, but I think there may be something to it with appropriate limits.

This also sounds like an issue of deciding whether to add a skill to the list of reaction skills. The real question here is: Do you want Blaster to be a reaction skill?
_________________
Obligatory postscript: It's your game; you do you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuclearwookiee wrote:
I could see allowing that, but in my opinion, the player couldn't react by declaring a parry, failing, and then reacting with Absorb/Dissipate Energy. The player would have to declare all concurrent reactions to a single triggering event at the same time. That means the character would roll the parry and Absorb/Dissipate checks at an extra -2d (-1d MAP for Absorb/Dissipate Energy's Control roll and another -1 CAP for doing it concurrent with parrying).

The way I see it happening in universe, a Jedi/Sith would attempt a Lightsaber Parry against multiple shots, recognize he lacks the skill to parry them all, and parry as many as he can while using Absorb/Dissipate to get the ones he couldn't. The precognition inherent to many Jedi abilities makes this plausible. Unfortunately, at the gaming table, there is no way to simulate results until the dice are actually rolled, so this would simulate the effects of precognition after the fact, with the CAP penalty representing the necessity of taking that sudden, unplanned action.

The best example I can think of this is in the trailer for The Old Republic, where Satele Shan duels Darth Malgus on Alderaan. Malgus damages her saber and goes for the killing blow, but she takes the lightsaber blow to her palm using Absorb/Dissipate to soak the damage. It's an awesome scene, but there's no method under the RAW to duplicate it, as Absorb/Dissipate has to be declared in advanced (and IIRC can't even be used as a reaction skill).

It's still not a guarantee of success, since the stacked MAP/CAP penalties add up pretty quickly, but it could make for some pretty dramatic Force Point moments at the right place and time...

Quote:
This sounds like more an issue of adding other skills to 2d ed.'s list of reaction skills. If you use a skill like d6 Space's Acrobatics skill in your game, I could see letting a player roll that as a reaction to being hit--not as a reaction to being attacked. I wouldn't treat it as an action concurrent with dodging or parrying because it is a reaction to a separate triggering event. But MAPs would apply as normal.

That's fair. Instead of Acrobatics, I'd probably use Agility (Dodge and Running combined into a single skill), although I'm not sure the regular MAP is sufficient to represent the added difficulty of doing this unexpectedly...

Quote:
This also sounds like an issue of deciding whether to add a skill to the list of reaction skills. The real question here is: Do you want Blaster to be a reaction skill?

I'm not sure Reaction skills are the right description, since Reactions as defined in the RAW are exclusively defensive in nature. That's why I mentioned Attacks of Opportunity, as this is almost the mirror image of a defensive reaction. I'd say it's more like an additional rule in parallel with Reaction, and not an addition to it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The best example I can think of this is in the trailer for The Old Republic, where Satele Shan duels Darth Malgus on Alderaan. Malgus damages her saber and goes for the killing blow, but she takes the lightsaber blow to her palm using Absorb/Dissipate to soak the damage. It's an awesome scene, but there's no method under the RAW to duplicate it, as Absorb/Dissipate has to be declared in advanced (and IIRC can't even be used as a reaction skill).

That is an awesome scene. You know, I looked up Absorb/Dissipate Energy last night. You are right that the text of that power doesn't explicitly state that it can be used as a reaction. That said, the example of the power given on 2d ed. R&E p. 143 totally uses it as a reaction in place of the Dodge skill: " A stormtrooper is shooting at Ana. Rather than dodge behind cover, she decides to use absorb/dissipate energy to absorb the shot." So I think the power does actually work the way you want it to.

The problem for your Jedi/Sith who realizes he can't keep up with all the parrying is that Absorbing/Dissipating multiple shots is much harder. Absorb/Dissipate energy is a one-time deal when it comes to shrugging off damage. Each time you get attacked, you're making a new roll at an additional -1d MAP. In contrast, under RAW, parrying is roll once for the entire round. So unless the Jedi/Sith's Control skill is way better than his combined Lightsaber and Sense skills, he's pretty much always going to do a better job parrying than Absorbing/Dissipating. I agree that it makes sense that a Jedi/Sith should be able to use Absorb/Dissipate as a backup, and you're right that the rules just aren't set up for that.
_________________
Obligatory postscript: It's your game; you do you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using Absorb/Dissipate as a reaction would be possible as written, if it is used in combination with Danger Sense. The shooter would have to declare his shot the round before, giving the Force user time to declare Absorb/Dissipate as a normal action, not as a reaction.

And I agree that it absolutely should be more difficult to pull this off "on the fly," so the MAP/CAP would be perfectly appropriate. I very much picture what Satele Shan did there as a Force Point moment, where she was pretty much out of options, and it was either die on Malgus' blade or go for a Hail Mary.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zulgyan
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 09 May 2017
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Haste system is not worth the trouble, at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
The Haste system is not worth the trouble, at all.

Not as written, but nuclearwookiee's Concurrent Action Penalty is an excellent evolution of the idea.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zulgyan
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 09 May 2017
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole haste system and it's corrections is rather "rules playing" to me: finding good strats within the confines of the rule system alone.

When I play SW, and 1E especially, I just want an easy system that can let me run SW adventures with my friends. The resulting stories is what matters, not so much the fiddly rule subsystems.

I usually play SW with just casual RPGers. I can get a more intricate system if you are more into hardcore gaming.


Last edited by Zulgyan on Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 12226
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. You're not going to find a "strat" (whatever that is) for every scenario you can potentially face in a game, and WEG straight-up said it's expected that we will invent new rules to suit our games (see my signature for the reference). Sure, the 1E Haste Rule was a flop, but that doesn't mean the idea itself is worthless, so long as a decent way can be found to apply it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> First Edition / IAG All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0