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Episode IX
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker, who's the villain of the sequel trilogy. And we know he's not going to be redeemed because he's already done actions for which he can never be forgiven for

Lucas' trilogies tell the story of the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin mass murdered Jedi children and still later brought balance to the Force. I don't see how you can be so certain that Kylo is unredeemable when Anakin was much worse and killed many more than Kylo (that we know of so far).

But I'm hoping Ren is not redeemed simply because they already have been there and done that in Star Wars.


This last about "been there, done that" I concur with. Repeating the redemption story would be trite. It can't happen anyway since there's no other Big Bad villain left for Kylo Ren to kill to be able to redeem himself since he already knocked off Snoke in TLJ and refused redemption then. With Snoke dead a movie early, how could Kylo Ren possibly redeem himself in Ep. IX? Who could possibly redeem themselves after so thoroughly rejecting their first (and likely only) chance at redemption?

In fact, I'm curious if there are any stories anywhere involving second chances at redemption where a villain got a second chance for redemption and actually successfully took it after completely rejecting it the first time. If anyone knows of such stories, let me know, either replying here or PM'ing me.

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Han murdered

That's not certain. It is possible that Han activated the lightsaber and killed himself


No. Just no. Watch that scene again, Whill. Look at Han's face when he's impaled. Just look at that rictus of complete and utter surprise, Whill. There's no way in hell Han expected that to happen. Sure, any parent worthy of the position would be willing to sacrifice himself (or herself) for their child, but not to get murdered by them. Han didn't sacrifice himself for his son. It makes no sense for Han to promise Leia that both he and Ben would both come home to be a family again, and then decide to sacrifice himself for no good reason. (And it would be no good reason because Han's death didn't redeem Kylo Ren anyway.) And look at that lightsaber again while it's in both their hands. That wasn't a struggle. That was Kylo Ren jerking around his father to get him to lower his guard and kill him with a lightsaber strike. Rewatch the rest of TFA from that point. When Rey calls Ren a monster after he killed Han, he doesn't go "I'm sorry, it was an accident." He's completely unrepentant about murdering his father. And even if Han Solo did decide to deliberately throw himself on his son's lightsaber, he wouldn't have had that look of shock on his face; he'd have steeled himself for the killing blow and would have kept his stoic look on his face.

Kylo Ren murdered Han Solo.

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Luke dead in a Heroic Sacrifice and who knows how the writers will end Leia now that Carrie Fisher is dead, even if they do have extra footage of Fisher left over from TLJ?

The unused footage they are shoehorning into Episode IX is from both TFA and TLJ. They have already flat out said they are not killing Leia in Episode IX. That would be harsh. Killing off Han and Luke in dramatically appropriate ways impactful to the stories they occurred in is one thing, but killing Leia, who will only have a minor roll in the film, would have been idiotic. And fans have already suffered for losing Carrie Fisher.


I didn't hear about the decision not to kill off Leia. Yeah, us fans have suffered enough with Carrie Fisher's death. This decision I approve of.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Repeating the redemption story would be trite.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I admit I am vey skeptical that another redemption story wouldn't be trite.

Sutehp wrote:
It can't happen anyway since there's no other Big Bad villain left for Kylo Ren to kill to be able to redeem himself since he already knocked off Snoke in TLJ and refused redemption then. With Snoke dead a movie early, how could Kylo Ren possibly redeem himself in Ep. IX?

Well, Rebels ended with Ezra riding the galaxy proper of the menace that was Admiral Thrawn by having the hyperspace wales lead them into the Unknown Regions... where the First Order rises. Rebels did not have any sort of satisfying ending for Ezra or Thrawn's stories (or Sabine or Ashuka who go looking for them after the Battle of Endor) - It was clearly a set-up for a return of Thrawn (and possibly the other characters too - One plausible fan theory is that Rey is the son of Ezra and Sabine). JJ could have totally taken a page out of Zahn and have Thrawn (now a First Order Grand Admiral) pacifying on the outskirts of the Unknown Regions until Snoke (the First Order Darth Sidious) died, causing Thrawn to come to the forefront and eventually challenge Kylo Ben's authority as Supreme Leader. Thrawn could have some super-dooper-hyper-diaper galaxy gun that destroys a quarter of a galaxy, and maybe Thrawn even has those magic anti-Force lizards that protect him from Kylo Ben (and Rey) from using the Force on him. Maybe it won't be in Episode IX, but Rebels for sure was trying to set-up some big return for Thrawn.

Maybe it will be another villain in Episode IX. Your premise assumes that they won't introduce a new villain character to bump heads with Kylo Ben. Both prior trilogy third episodes had new villains. JJ already literally reprised the original Star Wars film in TFA, and even TLJ took dozens of beats from prior Star Wars films so even it is not quite as original as some people think it is.


Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Han murdered

That's not certain. It is possible that Han activated the lightsaber and killed himself

No. Just no. Watch that scene again, Whill.

I've seen it many times, both as a part of the movie and a handful of times separately. I'm not exactly a noob when it comes to Star Wars, you know.

Sutehp wrote:
Look at Han's face when he's impaled. Just look at that rictus of complete and utter surprise, Whill. There's no way in hell Han expected that to happen. Sure, any parent worthy of the position would be willing to sacrifice himself (or herself) for their child, but not to get murdered by them. Han didn't sacrifice himself for his son. It makes no sense for Han to promise Leia that both he and Ben would both come home to be a family again, and then decide to sacrifice himself for no good reason. (And it would be no good reason because Han's death didn't redeem Kylo Ren anyway.) And look at that lightsaber again while it's in both their hands. That wasn't a struggle. That was Kylo Ren jerking around his father to get him to lower his guard and kill him with a lightsaber strike. Rewatch the rest of TFA from that point. When Rey calls Ren a monster after he killed Han, he doesn't go "I'm sorry, it was an accident." He's completely unrepentant about murdering his father. And even if Han Solo did decide to deliberately throw himself on his son's lightsaber, he wouldn't have had that look of shock on his face; he'd have steeled himself for the killing blow and would have kept his stoic look on his face.

LOL. That's quite humorous how you know exactly what expression someone should have on their face by getting stabbed through the chest by a lightsaber. Someone could do it to themselves and still be surprised and shocked because they couldn't possibly anticipate what being impaled by a lightsaber would feel like, even if they knew it was coming. Unless Qui-Gon's ghost had been talking to Han, that is.

Remember, in TLJ Luke knew about Darth Sidious and the Sith, so it is not unreasonable that Han could have found out about the old thing about Dark Side Masters like to require their apprentices to kill someone to prove their loyalty. Han did speak to his belief that he knew something about Snoke's motivations with Ben, so he could have assumed that Snoke would want Ben to kill his own father to prove his commitment to the Dark Side. Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas. Anakin killed Dooku and thousands of Jedi, and tried to kill Obi-Wan. Palpatine expected Vader to kill his son if he would not be turned, or Luke to kill his father and be turned to take his father's place.

Han may have thought that patricide may be the one thing that would eliminate any future possibility of Ben returning home (to the Light Side). That's "no good reason" to you? By Han being the one to hit the on button on the lightsaber, he is sacrificing himself to prevent his son from committing patricide. Ben can't kill his father if his father kills himself. That's not dying for nothing. I'm not saying that once the ligthsaber had impaled Han, the Dark Side in Ren didn't relish in it and twist the lightsaber just to make sure Han was dead. No one is saying Kylo Ben is secretly a completely good guy. He has the Light and the Dark.

Ben says is being torn apart. He admits a conflict. He knows what he has to do but doesn't know if he has the strength to do it. Ben says, "Will you help me?" Han steps forward and say, "Yes, Anything." Kylo gets out his lightsaber and presents it. Han grips it. It becomes dark and the lightsaber ignites. Kylo says, "Thank you." And as Han is dying an excruciating death, he reaches up and touches his son's face before falling. Not a normal reaction to being unexpectedly murdered.

I can see that your interpretation of that scene all along has been that Kylo is pure evil and totally just faked being torn apart. He's just a teasing his dad before killing him. Wow. They forgot the mustache twirling and maniacal laughter, didn't they? Sure there is a lot of idle speculation here on my part, but the name of the musical queue is "Torn Apart" and the emotion John Williams is portraying is real internal conflict, not an evil patricidal psyche out. John Williams has never lied with his music, and I totally reject that Kylo wasn't really conflicted. I pity anyone who can't appreciate what the musical score convey in films. Since Ben is the one who says he is torn apart when the music starts, it is obviously reflecting his feelings. Go YouTube "The Force Awakens Torn Apart", close your eyes, and listen to the music. Whether Han killed himself before Kylo could is in question here. Kylo Ben being conflicted is not in question. He was portraying real emotion to Han. Not just faking it.

Regardless of who actually pushed the lightsaber on button, another thing for certain is that Ben did not need Han to lower his guard. Han Solo, despite being my favorite Star War character, is admittedly no match for powerful Force users. With a mere flick of a finger, Ben could have telekinetically pushed Han off the bridge easily to kill him. (Then laughed maniacally and twirled his mustache. "Bye bye, Daddy! Hah hah hah hah hah haah!" Rolling Eyes )

Also, your objection assumes that the whole trilogy was planned ahead when we know it wasn't. JJ had no idea he would be concluding the trilogy when he started it. It's Schrodinger's Box meets Abram's Mystery Box. Both characters have hands on the saber, but at the time, JJ was just leaving it open to interpretation for someone else to decide which one killed Han. As produced, it is both true that Han killed himself to prevent his son from the dark stain of patricide, and Kylo Ben (while torn apart) choose the darkness of patricide. JJ wrote it as "Schrodinger's lightsaber activation button". We'll find out when the box is opened in Episode IX. And even if Han did kill himself, that still doesn't mean that Kylo will necessarily be redeemed. Han may have tried to help his son to no avail.

I'm not saying I know for sure Han sacrificed himself to help his son hold the Dark Side at bay, but I am open to possibility. TFA was the ANH reprise, and Han did fulfill the Obi-Wan role (and Obi-Wan sacrificed himself for the greater good). I am also open to the possibility that evil won in Kylo Ben's conflict. They both could fit.

To maximize your possible enjoyment of Episode IX, I would strongly suggest you try not to be so absolute in your interpretations and remain open to possibilities. Failing to do so almost certainly leads to disappointment. I am trying to help you guys by stating different possibilities. Remember on the very day the title of TLJ was announced, I publicly predicted Luke would die in that film? Remember how upset you got at my prediction? Remember in the film how Luke did die? I happened to have totally called that one, but you were having none of that. I'm just stating it is possible that Han heroically sacrificed himself, and it is possible that Kylo may be redeemed. It is possible the movie could be awesome, and it is possible it may not be. We'll know in December.
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WillTasker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I've seen it many times, both as a part of the movie and a handful of times separately. I'm not exactly a noob when it comes to Star Wars, you know.


Do you have any evidence to this?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WillTasker wrote:
Do you have any evidence to this?

Laughing



EDIT: Arrow Star Wars IX: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER
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