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Template Atributes.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject: Template Atributes. Reply with quote

I have been going through a lot of templates and have seen that some have more than 18D to attributes.

I am not including some of the "old republic" era templates from the dark side guide, where freedom fighter have 20D or something, some have as little as 16 including force D.

But in the more "relevant" templates i found the tramp freighter captain

Dexterity 2D+2:
Perception 3D+2:
Strength 3D:
Knowledge 3D+1:
Mechanical 3D:
Technical 3D+1:

(attributes only)
Source: Tramp Freighters

Having counted this I get 19D

2D from pips and 5x 3D for a total of 7D attributes ( 6D according to character creation rules)

I was wondering should "we" meaning us here in the pit, do some reups on some templates to get them all to a total of 18D?
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least regarding your example, thankfully, the 2nd Edition of Tramp Freighters
corrects the attribute allocation for the Tramp Freighter Captain template (on p.95),
making the Strength 2D, with the breakdown as below:

DEXTERITY 2D+2
KNOWLEDGE 3D+1
MECHANICAL 3D
PERCEPTION 3D+2
STRENGTH 2D
TECHNICAL 3D+1

IIRC, one of the other templates that has over 18D is the Veteran Spacer, but only by +1 pip,
which, while likely still an oversight by WEG and its writers/editors, is at least within reason
for a template that is supposed to represent a more experienced character.

DEXTERITY 3D
KNOWLEDGE 2D+1
MECHANICAL 3D+2
PERCEPTION 3D
STRENGTH 2D+2
TECHNICAL 3D+2

That said, if one of my players chose this template, I'd probably have them tweak the DEX down
a pip — or really any of the other attributes, depending upon what their character backstory/focus
was going to be, to bring the total back to 18D.

What were some of the more frequently used / relevant templates that you saw were over/under?


Last edited by Telsij on Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alliance Agitator from heroes and rogues is another i could find.
the ishi tib specise si a 12D species, same as with humans.

The template has 19D to attributes.

Again it could be i have the wrong deition, but still.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might just be mistakes. But some of those old republic force using templates DO start at 16D in attributes, with the other 2 d being in force skills.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was a mistake, they were pretty consistent with it. I always figured WEG did it on purpose.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

without listing every single one, i have found anything from 15 including 1D force, 16D, 17D, 18+Pips, even as much as 20 D

And yes it might very well be mistakes, but i find it to be a few to many to simply be a mistake
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Template Atributes. Reply with quote

I feel the published templates that do not confirm to 18D are probably a combination of (1) mistakes, because writers aren't always good at math and even those who are can still just have a brain fart sometimes especially when rushed with a looming deadline and a lack of overall stat editing, and (2) intentional nonconformance because some authors may just defiantly insist that they can make it 16D or 19D+1 if they damn well feel like it and who's going to stop them? because again, a lack of stat editing.

Mamatried wrote:
I was wondering should "we" meaning us here in the pit, do some reups on some templates to get them all to a total of 18D?

I like your thinking. Regardless of why there are templates with exceptions to being 18D, I am of the mind that all PCs should be game balanced to each other.

In my game typical species attribute dice totals can vary widely and are in no way balanced to each other because not all species evolve equally, but most typical or nontypical members of any species are NPCs which do also do not have to be balanced to each other.

I don't agree with all the choices RAW authors have made and IMO they don't always reflect the fluff close enough. I personally have gone through and restatted a lot of the species and PC templates, even the ones that are already 18D. I can share my Tramp Freighter Captain, Veteran Spacer, and any others that I have done, but some of you will probably disagree with my choices...

Tramp Freighter Captain
DEX 2D+1
KNO 3D
MEC 3D+2
PER 3D+2
STR 2D+1
TEC 3D

Veteran Spacer
DEX 2D+2
KNO 3D
MEC 3D+2
PER 2D+2
STR 3D
TEC 3D
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is somewhat off-topic, but when we were discussing the Force Attribute way back when, I noticed that several of the Force Sensitive templates had odd distributions of Force dice. A Minor Jedi having 1D in Control, for instance, while a Failed Jedi has 1D each in Control and Sense?
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
This is somewhat off-topic, but when we were discussing the Force Attribute way back when, I noticed that several of the Force Sensitive templates had odd distributions of Force dice. A Minor Jedi having 1D in Control, for instance, while a Failed Jedi has 1D each in Control and Sense?


This reminded me of the "beast master" template, that starts with 3D sense ( total 18D, 15D other attributes)
Now with the 7D to skills and being allowed to place +2D to a skill ( 1D to 3D for the failed jedi's control) making the beastmaster able sto start with 5D sense.


I was thinking that one way to balance out all templates is to allow all templates 18D, the three force skills becomes this from creation, skills.

A failed jedi in this case with his 1D to each force skills, would have 18D to attributes like everyone else, but only 4D to skills (7D minus his total 3D to force skills), while a mundane, non force trained ( no D in force skills) will have their 7D to skill allocation.

Part of the reasoning or this is that while the jedi can easliy be overly powerful, they still suck LOL.

You need to be quite good at enhance attribute to matach up a 2D DEX (your being a weakling with the force) and a Bounty Huner's 4D, add skill in dodge to 6D nd the jed here is no longer so overly powerful. If he has to use enhanced attribute to match this, then another to "do something" he runs a MAP penalty....

I would say that since characters do not have a teacher (it is actually meant that way) they learn any powers on their own, this is not at all easy.
And you risk having a Jedi, using his lightsaber with his 2D dex (4D skill) and is dependent on using lightsaber combat to be able to use it in a worth while manner, let alone to actually do "jedi stuff".
His sense and control needs 3-4D each minimum.

However he has and should have difficulties learning powers on his own, it is not hard to learn skills.
The jedi now spends CPs to improve, his lightaber combat.
He may not be able to learn any new powers
He then learns skills at at a low cost but also low level, 2Ds at one pip at the time.....struggling to catch up with anyone's dodge.

Thus I see it more balanced to reduce skill dice accordingly for force users, and allow all PC characters 18 attributes, force user or not.
non force users get more skills as they didn't train the force.

The cost of becomming force sensitive is still the same, and leaning on your own is hard, finding a teacher is not just loking up the yellow pages.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I much prefer the Force Attribute approach, which helps maintain some of the balancing effect inherent in using Attribute dice for Force skills upon character creation, while also adhering more closely to the canon of how the Force can be stronger in some than in others, even among Force sensitives.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may have mentioned this before but the "Tales of the Jedi" sourcebook has the editorial standards of an over-sugared kindergarten. Actually, probably less than that.

That book is a myriad of mistakes. The templates are no exception.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
I may have mentioned this before but the "Tales of the Jedi" sourcebook has the editorial standards of an over-sugared kindergarten. Actually, probably less than that.

That book is a myriad of mistakes. The templates are no exception.


Yeah, this far into my professional career I look at that book and wonder, "What happened?" I mean, at a first glance as a reader it was apparent that most of the Jedi couldn't even activate the powers they had in the book.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Kytross wrote:
I may have mentioned this before but the "Tales of the Jedi" sourcebook has the editorial standards of an over-sugared kindergarten. Actually, probably less than that.

That book is a myriad of mistakes. The templates are no exception.


Yeah, this far into my professional career I look at that book and wonder, "What happened?" I mean, at a first glance as a reader it was apparent that most of the Jedi couldn't even activate the powers they had in the book.

Agreed. That book is mostly useful for the Force powers compilation and a few of the optional rule suggestions toward the back of the book.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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