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Shields
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've wondered about the Shields RAW is how the dice stacking compares to the various Coordination Rules.

What I mean is, Shield Dice are treated as a Dice Pool that can be split between the four fire arcs, or can be combined all in one. So if, say, a ship has 3D in Shields, it can put all 3D in one arc, put 2D in one arc and 1D in another, or put 1D each in three different arcs. But per the 2E and later iterations of the coordination rules, you don't get a straight +2D modifier for combining three 1D dice values.

Per the 2E Rules (see Combined Action Bonus Tables on pg. 69 of the 2E Rulebook), combining three shields would only get a +1D bonus, or at most, a +1D+2 bonus instead of +2D for combining four shields.

Per the 2R&E Rules (page 83), combining three 1D shields would only get a +1D bonus.

So, per the way Shields are described, it would seem that it isn't a single shield of a set value, but rather multiple shields that can be combined together to create a better defense. However, under the 2R&E Rules, a B-Wing with 2D Shields should only be able to get a +1 bonus to its Shields by combining them in the same arc.

I don't see any reason to apply coordination rules to Shield rules because I don't see the shields in different arcs coordinating with each other. The ship's shields just has X total amount of shields to go around and you allocate it where you want it. If your ship has 2D total in shields and you put all of it into the front arc, the other arcs aren't "helping" the front arc. There is nothing in the other arcs at the moment because it is all in the front arc. Then when you later put 1D in the rear arc, the 2D total is just split up between two arcs.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I don't see any reason to apply coordination rules to Shield rules because I don't see the shields in different arcs coordinating with each other. The ship's shields just has X total amount of shields to go around and you allocate it where you want it. If your ship has 2D total in shields and you put all of it into the front arc, the other arcs aren't "helping" the front arc. There is nothing in the other arcs at the moment because it is all in the front arc. Then when you later put 1D in the rear arc, the 2D total is just split up between two arcs.


I agree. There's a set shield value, how you allocate it is different than being a 'coordination' bonus..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But simply transferring power from one arc to another doesn't explain what we see Chewbacca doing during the Falcon vs. TIEs battle. What we see on the Falcon's cockpit readout is a far better fit with steering / angling a deflector shield (as per Han's command) to block an attack, not transferring power from one arc to another.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
I don't see any reason to apply coordination rules to Shield rules because I don't see the shields in different arcs coordinating with each other. The ship's shields just has X total amount of shields to go around and you allocate it where you want it. If your ship has 2D total in shields and you put all of it into the front arc, the other arcs aren't "helping" the front arc. There is nothing in the other arcs at the moment because it is all in the front arc. Then when you later put 1D in the rear arc, the 2D total is just split up between two arcs.


I agree. There's a set shield value, how you allocate it is different than being a 'coordination' bonus..

CRMcNeill wrote:
But simply transferring power from one arc to another doesn't explain what we see Chewbacca doing during the Falcon vs. TIEs battle. What we see on the Falcon's cockpit readout is a far better fit with steering / angling a deflector shield (as per Han's command) to block an attack, not transferring power from one arc to another.

Neither garhkal nor I said anything about transferring power. You may be confusing our replies with Mamatried's.

Quote:
HAN: Angle the deflector shields while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

HAN: Angle the deflector shields while I charge up the main guns!

Han says shields (plural), but yes I agree 100% that what we see on the Falcon is steering/angling deflector shields to block attacks. RAW interprets that way too. A ship has x Shield dice, and characters allocate the Shield dice among the four fire arcs. This is "steering" the projected energy and moving it around. It is not transferring power. garhkal's post immediately above your last post was replying to my reply to you about your consideration of applying the coordination mechanic. We're not seeing how the rules for characters coordinating with each other to apply bonuses to each other rolls as having any similarity with angling defector shields around the ship, which is allocating a constant total resource of shield energy to different directions that attacks may come from (well, constant until damaged). garhkal was just agreeing with me that we don't see that as all four arcs having the energy and coordinating arcs with each other. All four arcs only have the energy if you split the total energy 4 ways to allocate a quarter of it to each arc.

Let's say I am sitting on the floor in the middle of the room with 3 blocks in my hand. I can choose to keep all the block in my lap, or I can choose to place them around me to my front, right, back, and left, in any combination. I can choose to put all 3 block behind me. Or I can choose 2 behind me and 1 in front. Or I can chose to put 1 back, 1 right, and 1 left. The blocks help defend me against attacks that may come in from any of those 4 directions. The more blocks in any direction, the more protection I have from attacks from that direction. In RAW, those blocks are shield dice. They represent an amount of deflector shield energy, part of the total directed energy the ship's shield generator has to help protect the ship. We don't see that angling that energy around to the various arcs around the ship (allocating the blocks) as being like coordinating skill rolls with each other. It's one defector shield operator on the ship angling the total energy around to arcs best defect the ship.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, now let's apply that example to laser cannon. Say a ship has two turreted laser cannon that do 4D damage each, but can be fire-linked if they are shooting at a target in the same arc. Per the RAW, the combined cannon don't get to inflict 8D damage (4D+4D); they roll either a +1D bonus (under the 2E system) or a +1 bonus (2R&E).

My point is that, based on the RAW, combined with what we see in the films, a ship with 3D in Shields that can be divided between 4 different arcs actually has 3 1D Shield Projectors that can be steered independently. The problem is that, when those shields are combined, they aren't combined consistent with the rules by which everything else in the RAW is combined.

Now, if it was just an internal power transfer, allocating power between four different 3D-Strength Shield Projectors, each covering a 90 degree arc around the ship, then that would be a better fit with, for example, the power transfer rules from Far Orbit. But, if we're going to interpret the RAW by what we see in the films, then the rules for combining shields into a single arc is inconsistent with the rules for combining everything else in the game.

I'd much prefer it if there was one consistent rule that applied to everything, including shields.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

.


Last edited by Zarn on Sat May 04, 2019 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
I'm sorry, but here I disagree. A 3D shield generator is not the same as three 1D shield generators. Consider the weight - an 1D shield generator is 6 tons, while a 3D shield generator is 10 tons. There's something here that's not linear. Most electromagnetic forces drop off by the square of the distance rather than linearly; might be something similar going on with shields.

It's never been particularly clear what constitutes linear in the game stats. Note, for instance, that a single laser cannon on a TIE (found on models like the TIE/rc and TIE/fc) inflicts 4D damage, but a second laser fire-linked with it (as on the TIE/ln) inflicts 5D, and two additional laser cannon fire-linked (the TIE Interceptor) inflicts 6D. The progression appears to be x2 = +1D, which is exponential, not linear.

So, per the RAW, a shield generator is capable of functioning as either a 3D shield generator, three separate 1D shield generators, or a 2D shield generator and a 1D shield generator. However, based on the coordination rules (either version), it should not be able to.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
I'm sorry, but here I disagree. A 3D shield generator is not the same as three 1D shield generators. Consider the weight - an 1D shield generator is 6 tons, while a 3D shield generator is 10 tons. There's something here that's not linear. Most electromagnetic forces drop off by the square of the distance rather than linearly; might be something similar going on with shields.


Same here. I do NOT see 'putting two of your 3 shield die in the front arc' as working like combining fire does.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, but why? Is it just because that's what the RAW says, or do you have a specific reason why shield dice should combine differently than everything else?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
The way i read is that is that every sho has their shield dice as a bese default, to me this is the default on all archs.

2D shiels is 2D to every arch, with the "power surplus" as in the power relay rules, 2every ship can have 2D+2 of power simply "running around in the system" and thses can then be used to boost the shiled arch as a reaction skill, ot for weapons and sensors apply to those.

So a successful skill allows you to boost the shield arch with uptp 2D+2 minus what ever is sed for other systems.
Maybe a TN to how much you manage to squeeze out to the arch with your roll result

If it weren't for the on-screen angling control seen in ANH, I'd be very much inclined to take this route. It's a good match for what we see in the X-Wing games.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's a possibility, combining facets of the various ideas suggested so far, plus a few of my own...

1). Two types of deflectors exist: combat and navigation. Navigation shields are projected very close to the ship's hull, and contribute 1D to its Hull value. Upgraded Navigation Shields can improve this to +2D.

2). Combat Deflectors, however, are projected further away from the ship, and are treated as Protection (see SWRPG 2R&E, pg. 94), providing Full Cover in any arc in which a shield is active. On a successful Gunnery roll, Damage is rolled against the Shield Dice for that Arc only. On a successful Damage roll, the Damage roll is modified as per the following chart:
    Damage Roll > Shield by # = Damage Modifier
    0-3 = Ship completely protected
    4-8 = -4D
    9-12 = -2D
    13-15 = -1D
    16+ = -0D
Example: A TIE/ln fires at and hits the Rear Arc of an X-Wing. The TIE rolls an 11 on Damage against a 2 for the X-Wing's Shields. The Shields absorb much of the blast and reduced the Damage of the TIE's lasers by 6 (-2D) to 5, which the X-Wing's Hull shrugs off easily, rolling 17 on 4D.

3). Ships may increase the strength of Shields in one arc by either A) diverting all the power from another arc, or B) diverting Auxiliary Power (if available) to that arc. In either case, the Shields in that arc increase by 1D. Shield systems are built to safely handle 1D of additional power, but can be pushed beyond that in emergencies. However, there is a risk of the shields burning out. To represent this, any additional dice above the "safe" 1D count as Wild Dice; on a Wild Dice result, the Shield Generator for that Arc burns out (Lightly Damaged, and must be repaired before it can be used again).

Rerouting Power is considered either a Free Action or No-Roll Action at GM's discretion.

4). Finally, ships with dedicated Shield Operators may attempt to angle the shields in combat to improve their effectiveness against an attack. This is a Standard Action, rolled as a Reaction once any attackers have declared their attacks for the round. The Base Difficulty is based on the number of Fire Arcs being attacked in the round:
    One Arc: Easy
    Two Arcs: Moderate
    Three Arcs: Difficult
    Four Arcs: Very Difficult
For every 3 points of success on the Shield Operator's skill roll, increase the Shield's roll by +1. Likewise, for every 3 points of failure, reduce the Shield's roll by -1.

Starfighters rarely make use of this option, as a single crewman often has too many other duties to do more than put reroute power to his most threatened arc and try to evade any attacks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Okay, but why? Is it just because that's what the RAW says, or do you have a specific reason why shield dice should combine differently than everything else?


Because its that with Shields, there's a set # of dice to allocate. NO OTHER method of combining actions has that.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, thinking about this...

"Angle the Deflector shields" is a Command Action, telling your shield operator to be ready to use their [Type] Shields skill, usually combined with a named arc.

"Double Front", as part of that Command Action, tells them to ignore other arcs; explicitly, do not take the penalty for engaging your shields on multiple arcs.

Now, mind you, I think the rules could have been implemented BETTER; I prefer the idea that you use Starship Shields to cover your arcs, then don't have to worry about them as a reaction unless you want to switch arcs... but that's not RAW, nor MAIR (Movies As Interpretted in Rules).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
The way i read is that is that every sho has their shield dice as a bese default, to me this is the default on all archs.

2D shiels is 2D to every arch, with the "power surplus" as in the power relay rules, 2every ship can have 2D+2 of power simply "running around in the system" and thses can then be used to boost the shiled arch as a reaction skill, ot for weapons and sensors apply to those.

So a successful skill allows you to boost the shield arch with uptp 2D+2 minus what ever is sed for other systems.
Maybe a TN to how much you manage to squeeze out to the arch with your roll result

If it weren't for the on-screen angling control seen in ANH, I'd be very much inclined to take this route. It's a good match for what we see in the X-Wing games.



I think what we see is the "allocating of the 2D+2 running power surplus"
We never heard anything about getting more power to the guns, adjusting anything to the fire control or the like.

This to me seems they worried about the shileding.

So Han says to chewie to angle the deflectors, here he basically sets the main angle, where the shiled is at max or boosted power.
Directed towards the arch the attacing ships approach from, this makes sense as to shield from long range fire while Han and Luke mans the guns.

Then as the 4 ties close in and basically swarm the falcon, we see Chewie looking around for the TIEs, while flickering about on the controls.
It would be reasonable to argue he is actively steering the shield or "boosted part" of the shields to best meet the incomming attacks.
Perhaps even Leia helped, making it easier to cover more angles of attack.

Now I see this boosting of power as bing "fed by" the surplus 2D+2 that runs in the ship system just like under the power transfer rules.

This happens when Han tells chewie to angle the shileds, we see cheiwe press a button or flip a switch in the roof of the cockpit....to me this is the power tranfer button.

During the space battle, we see chewie actively using the shield controls to steer the shields and boost them with the awailable power, in this case up to 2D+2 and seeming nothing transferred to any other systems but shields.

Chewie then usues the skill much like a reaction skill steering it to follow the attackers, and I would argue unless Leia helped him, he would get MAP penalties for trying to cover multiple archs, AND a reduced "boost" to each of those. (what he used of the 2D+2 surplus MINUS the number of archs)

It could even be argued that adjusting the power to the shileds here, during this would give additional MAP.
If chewie is covering two archs he gets MAP, and he gets additonal MAP if he tries to adjust power the covered archs in any way.

This takes for granted that the shield default is ship shiled dice, and either cover all archs with that number, or that the shileds is a "half bubble" with the shield dice as default and the power rerouting can boost to this, in addtion to the shield being actively steered, with MAP when applicable
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Okay, but why? Is it just because that's what the RAW says, or do you have a specific reason why shield dice should combine differently than everything else?


Because its that with Shields, there's a set # of dice to allocate. NO OTHER method of combining actions has that.

But that's my point. The Shields are basically using a completely different method of combining than every other rule for combining effort in the game, and accruing a much greater benefit from it.
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