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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
The Star Trek Adventures RPG from Modiphius looks amazing.

I wish it weren't so expensive. I wants it!


I know, right?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:23 am    Post subject: Rank Trek Reply with quote

This is updated from a 2010 thread on D6 Online...


TV Series
1. The Next Generation
2. Enterprise
3. The Original Series
4. The Animated Series

This is overall, the series as a whole. TNG started slow but got better and has the longest list of favorite episodes. Enterprise got better as it went along. TOS is the classic basis of the franchise but has a lot of duds, especially in the 3rd and final season.

I originally had Voyager and DS9 on the bottom, but now that I am slowly working through them I don't think it is fair to really rank them against the series I have seen completely. I haven't seen anything yet to displace the top three, but I am giving them a chance. And I love Discovery one season in, but likewise can't judge it as a series as a whole yet because it is not whole.

Overall Movies
1. Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness - TIE

The Star Trek movie series is really three series, and I can't compare the series against the other series except that I know like the above two films more than all the rest. I really like Star Trek Beyond but can't even compare that one to the other two films series. So an overall film ranking is just not going to happen!

TOS Movies
1. The Voyage Home
2. The Wrath of Khan
3. The Search for Spock
4. The Undiscovered Country
5. The Motion Picture
6. The Final Frontier


TNG Movies
1. Generations
2. First Contact
3. Insurrection
4. Nemesis

The top three TNG movies tend to shuffle around. I know liking Generations is unpopular, but it totally works for me. The icing on the cake is that ugly Enterprise-D gets destroyed. And Kirk gets two dramatic death scenes while functioning as a supporting character for Picard, and part of Kirk survives in an eternal sci-fi "heaven." Insurrection has some lame aspects like Worf’s acne, Data learning to play, and some slow parts, but I dig the new age message. It is a fitting end of the TNG movies. I don’t like Nemesis but I think that TFF is probably the overall worst of the 13 movies so far. TMP, TFF and Nemesis are not part of my personal Trek canon (although some alternate versions of those stories may have occurred in my personal Trek multiverse).

Enterprise Models
1. 1701 (refit) & 1701-A, Constitution-class refit (as featured in TOS movies)
2. 1701 (2250s), Constitution-class (as shown in Discovery)*
3. 1701 (alternate 2250s), Constitution-class (as featured in the last three movies)
4. 1701-B, Excelsior-class refit (as shown in the 23rd Century prologue of Generations)
5. 1701-E, Sovereign-class (as featured in the last three TNG movies)
6. NX-01, NX-class (as featured in Enterprise)
7. 1701-C, Ambassador-class (as shown in TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise")
8. 1701-D, Galaxy-class (as featured in TNG and Generations)
9. 1701 (2260s), Constitution-class (as featured in TOS after the pilots)

Although I saw the entire TOS and became a Trek fan before seeing any movies, to this day nothing beats the 1979 model. That ship is slick-looking!

* We’ve only seen this in the Season 1 cliffhanger ending of Discovery, so there is brief video and screen caps out there. Like with every Enterprise, they started with the original Enterprise as a basis, then they modernized it with added coloration, texture, and other details so it doesn’t look so painfully like 1960s sci-fi. But in this case they stayed truest to the original ship in shape, making it a nearly-idealized TOS Enterprise. (There is a nod to the refit and the alternate Constitution-class, plus a couple Discovery design features.) But the asterisk is to make this ship’s ranking tentative because it was seen so briefly. We will undoubtedly see more of it in Season 2 of Discovery (which starts in January) because Captain Pike and Mr. Spock will appear.


CHARACTERS

The Original Series
* LOVE: Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty
* LIKE: Uhura, Sulu, Checkov

The Next Generation
* LOVE: Picard, Riker, Data, Worf
* LIKE: Yar
* ACCEPT AS OK: LaForge, Troi, Dr. Crusher
* INDIFFERENT: Pulaski, Chief O'Brien
* DISLIKE: Wesley Crusher, Guinan, Barclay

Enterprise
* LIKE: Archer, T'Pol, Trip, Sato, Phlox
* ACCEPT AS OK: Mayweather
* INDIFFERENT: Reed

Deep Space Nine *
* LIKE: Quark, Worf
* ACCEPT AS OK: Jadzia Dax, Bashir, Odo
* INDIFFERENT: Kira, Chief O'Brien, Jake Sisko
* DISLIKE: Benjamin Sisko, Garak

Voyager *
* LIKE: The Doctor, Chakotay
* INDIFFERENT: Paris, Torres, Kim, Kes
* DISLIKE: Tuvok, Janeway, Neelix

I haven’t seen all of these last two series. I’m on Season 3 for DS9 for my straight-through but I have seen a few various later episodes with Worf. Some DS9 characters have actually moved up to a higher level, and I am open to liking DS9 and VOY characters and the series more as time goes on.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Enterprise Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
KageRyu wrote:
I did not care for Enterprise at first, but after setting aside a few issues with timeline a watching a few of the more conflict oriented episodes it did grow on me.

I'm curious what your timeline issues were. Did you notice that in the Seasons 4 opener where they completely resolved the Temporal Cold War, part of the resolution was that the temporal war never even happened in the first place? The resolution to the temporal war that kicked off ENT season 4 completely erased certain episodes from the timeline and may have altered others. What exactly the new timeline was wasn't specified because they completely moved on from it after that, never referring to it again. It is not even clear what the Enterprise characters remember from the temporal war. But it allows for a lot of discrepancies to be easily resolved, paving the way for the series to mend itself back with the rest of the franchise in Season 4...

Sadly my timeline issues had almost nothing to do with the Temporal Cold War arc, and were not resolved by season 4 - they go much deeper. I am somewhat reluctant to go into extreme detail, but I will say it was based on direct contradictions to a history of the Federation and This part of the galaxy as directly detailed over a number of years by Roddenberry himself when he was still alive, but not shown on screen. This was through multiple background books that were created, edited, and/or produced by Gene Roddenberry , often in conjuction with other authors, and numerous interviews and behind the scenes articles in the infamous Starlog, Fangoria, and several other magazines. Given I no longer have many of my magazines (destroyed in flooding in my dad's basement) I can no longer show proof - and I recall the negativity when I brought up such material pertaining to Star Wars some time ago. Still, for me, having grown up with and been aware of said material (as with the Star Wars material) it is fact and affects how I perceive new material for the franchise. Some of it was contradicted right in episode 1 of Enterprise - actually, what I considered a major point, and so I did not watch the series much past the moment it did so until years later in reruns. Of course, I was already upset by the fact the series named the main Ship Enterprise and directly contradicted the established fact from both TOS and ST movies that Kirk's Enterprise was the first starship to bear the name.

What finally got me to give it a chance was one of the episodes from the
Expanse. One of my friends at the time was watching it, and he was a fan, so even though we had plans, I had to wait for it to end. During the battle, several phaser hits penetrated the saucer, and in the debris I could see human shapes floating out into space, and I thought, nice they finally took off the gloves (I hated how muted the action in Voyager was...often times when Voyager should have returned fire they fled or negotiated or surrendered, really bothered me). So I watched another episode, the next week, and it was the one with the Trellium mine, and I loved how the crews response to kidnapped officers wasn't to barter but to send in the marines. So then I decided the series had some teeth that might overshadow it's shortcomings and gave it a chance.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu, thanks for a detailed answer to my curiosity. Yeah the first two seasons of Enterprise were pretty generic exploration Trek, then the third season was unprecedented in Trek - The entire season is actually a single military mission. The ship even had MACOs. The first season of Discovery involves a war with a faction of Klingons.

When I was a kid in the mid-80s, I read up on Trek and all the lore I could get my hands on. I ate it up. I do understand that if the Enterprise series contradicted your head-canon based on non-canon elements from Roddenberry then the show could be seen as contradictory. It's your prerogative, but that is extremely selective because Roddenberry contradicted himself and Trek made with Roddenberry's involvement also contradicted earlier lore. In early TOS episodes, there was no Federation or Starfleet. There was "United Earth Space Probe Agency" and later "Star Fleet". But fans say that they were still getting their footing then so it is forgivable. And the first season of TNG made official changes (approved by Roddenberry) to then-accepted Trek lore, but TNG is so beloved by fans it gets a pass. I know a lot of fans didn't like ENT, but holding non-canon against it is an unnecessary restriction to enjoyment of Trek. I'm glad to see you were able to get past it somewhat for ENT Season 3.

Regarding the one specific thing you mentioned, the history of ships named Enterprise, there isn't a contradiction. Kirk's Enterprise was never the first starship bearing its name. The TOS Enterprise was the first Federation starship named Enterprise. In the lore and ship chronologies appearing in the background of Roddenberry productions, there were Earth ships named Enterprise before the Federation existed (For example, see the XCV-330). The ENT show takes place before the Federation existed, so it's Enterprise is an Earth ship and Kirk's ship is still the first Federation starship named Enterprise. The Federation formed after the Earth-Romulan War, and ENT takes place before that war. The lore was honored.

So the only retcon is this particular Enterprise model wasn't shown in those prior background chronologies made before the production of ENT. To each his own, but I find I don't mind. ENT Season 3 was pretty good overall, but the producers of Season 4 making a conscientious effort for ENT to conform with TOS and the rest of the franchise turned out what in my opinion is one of the best single seasons of any Star Trek series.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of Enterprise versions, am I the only one who was disappointed by the 1701-E? For a dedicated battleship, it never really did much.

First Contact: Taken over by the Borg. Ok, I'll give them that one.
Insurrection: Slapped around by the Sona. Yeah, Riker's manly piloting triumphed, but the ship mostly ran away.
Nemesis: Shields collapsing, weapons offline, crew perishing...Ramming Speed! Even that didn't stop the evil Romulan dreadnought.

So, for what was supposed to be the last word in rump-kickery, I found it very underwhelming.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
Speaking of Enterprise versions, am I the only one who was disappointed by the 1701-E? For a dedicated battleship, it never really did much.

First Contact: Taken over by the Borg. Ok, I'll give them that one.
Insurrection: Slapped around by the Sona. Yeah, Riker's manly piloting triumphed, but the ship mostly ran away.
Nemesis: Shields collapsing, weapons offline, crew perishing...Ramming Speed! Even that didn't stop the evil Romulan dreadnought.

So, for what was supposed to be the last word in rump-kickery, I found it very underwhelming.

That's like saying that Batman should just go get Superman to take care of all the non-powered villains in Gotham. If the Enterprise-E (or any other Enterprise) easily outmatched any enemies, there would be no drama and that doesn't make for very good fiction. Also, E was only seen three times total, once every couple years of her mission. I think we can presume that lots of boring things happened where the ship easily bested her opponents - Those things happened "offscreen" and aren't important enough to be made into movies.

And in Nemesis, where the human clone that took control of the Romulan Empire had that ultra-powerful deadly green stuff, the dune buggy scene was less disappointing than the Enterprise (or the entire rest of the film).

When I ranked Enterprise models above, I was only basing that on aesthetics. E is definitely my least favorite design that first appeared in films, but it is still cooler looking than all the TV Enterprises (except for the new Discovery model, probably).
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel wrote:
Speaking of Enterprise versions, am I the only one who was disappointed by the 1701-E? For a dedicated battleship, it never really did much.

First Contact: Taken over by the Borg. Ok, I'll give them that one.
Insurrection: Slapped around by the Sona. Yeah, Riker's manly piloting triumphed, but the ship mostly ran away.
Nemesis: Shields collapsing, weapons offline, crew perishing...Ramming Speed! Even that didn't stop the evil Romulan dreadnought.

So, for what was supposed to be the last word in rump-kickery, I found it very underwhelming.


while it was a technologically advanced ship, it was not a warship. it was primarily designed as an exploratory heavy cruiser but as the borg threat became more problematic, the design was augmented with borg defense in mind.

and in each movie you listed, the 1701-E is seriously outgunned.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite Engineers:

  1. Montgomery Scott: the original and the miracle worker
  2. Miles O'Brien: one of the few who could fuse Federation and Cardassian tech into a working station. He's also the Chekov of DS9, in that whenever someone is kidnapped or tortured, it's usually him.
  3. Geordi LaForge: a good engineer, but too by-the-book until much later in his career.
  4. Trip Tucker: very likable character but overshadowed by other characters.
  5. B'Leanna Torres: it took a while for her character to settle into the series and she was constantly overshadowed by Janeway and Seven of Nine.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Rank Trek Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Deep Space Nine
* LIKE: Quark, Worf
* ACCEPT AS OK: Jadzia Dax, Bashir, Odo
* INDIFFERENT: Kira, Chief O'Brien, Jake Sisko
* DISLIKE: Benjamin Sisko, Garak

Voyager
* LIKE: The Doctor, Chakotay
* INDIFFERENT: Paris, Torres, Kim, Kes
* DISLIKE: Tuvok, Janeway, Neelix

I was watching both series simultaneously in chronological order, but I got tired of that so went ahead and finished VOY s2 except the season cliffhanger. Now I've gone back to DS9 and I'm about a third of the way through s4. I've noticed some pf my feelings have changed so this is where I'm at right now. In each character appreciation level, left to right is most liked to least liked.


Deep Space Nine
* LIKE: Quark, Bashir, Worf
* OK: Odo, Jadzia Dax, Rom
* INDIFFERENT: Kira, Chief O'Brien, Jake Sisko,
* DISLIKE: Benjamin Sisko, Garak, Nog

Some characters have moved up, most notably Bashir. I started to like Rom a little more - It's funny that he has become this technical wizard when he doesn't sound very smart, but I still find his voice grating. Nog is annoying. I'm so glad he went to Starfleet Academy, but I'm guessing he'll be back. The show has overall improved for me, but not significantly. The Defiant is a plus, Worf and Klingons are a plus. The premise of the space station, the Cardassian-Bajoran conflict, and the wormhole is an interesting concept but still seems to be not living up to its potential. This Dominion conflict that was so hyped before is now developing so slowly so I forget it is there, but I presume there will eventually be an all-out war (I hope). It is annoying to me that Starfleet security officers are technical wizards whenever the plot lazily requires it - Not all tan-shirts are engineers. It is messed up that O'Brien has such an important job but he still isn't even an officer - Sisko was rightfully promoted to captain so promote O'Brien to Ensign or Lt! I've come to dread all Kira/Bajoran episodes, and I can't stand the Bajoran priesthood (any of the characters: the love interest, the lady, etc.). But most sadly, almost half-way through the series and I still don't enjoy Ben Sisko. I still think the actor is not so great - His inflections on some of his line deliveries are terrible.


Voyager
* LIKE: The Doctor, Torres, Janeway, Chakotay
* OK: Paris, Tuvok
* INDIFFERENT: Kim
* DISLIKE: Kes, Neelix

A lot of character changes for me. I like Torres and Janeway now, except I do still find Janeway's voice to be annoying at times. I kinda feel guilty about that because how could I let something so trivial impair my appreciation of her like that? It just has a "grandma" quality that rubs me the wrong way for a starship captain. Otherwise, I enjoy her. I like the series premise more, a Federation starship with a combination Federation/Marquis crew stranded on the other side of the galaxy and slowly working their way home and having adventures on the way. This allows stories to have mutinies, etc. Resources are important. But I feel that the show is not living up to its potential (yet). It's annoying that a lot of episodes they just randomly sprinkle the bridge dialogue to any officer regardless of function. (One episode Janeway was standing on one side of the bridge and gave an order to someone on the other side of the bridge that should have gone to the officer standing right beside her.) I've found that over time I have grown to dislike Kes. I don't really know why. I know she doesn't last the series and I keep hoping to get to her departure from the show. I still dislike Neelix the most and wish he would leave too, but I'm pretty sure he is there until the end of the series.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Rank Trek Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
This Dominion conflict that was so hyped before is now developing so slowly so I forget it is there, but I presume there will eventually be an all-out war (I hope).


I don't want to spoil anything, but I will say that you don't need to worry on that score.

Whill wrote:
It is messed up that O'Brien has such an important job but he still isn't even an officer - Sisko was rightfully promoted to captain so promote O'Brien to Ensign or Lt!


O'Brien may be an NCO (non-commisioned officer) instead of a commissioned officer, but he's essentially the only reason that the space station even functions; whenever he leaves DS9 for any length of time, things start breaking down. (You'll see this yourself in the Season 6 Episode "Honor Among Thieves.") And O'Brien has the rank of Senior Chief Petty Officer, which is pretty high up the NCO ladder. There's also this quote concerning how well Senior Chief Petty Officers are regarded in Starfleet:

Quote:
In Starfleet, chiefs were subordinate to all commissioned officers, they had far more experience and practical knowledge than ensigns and lieutenants, and were expected to act as mentors to them and to the junior enlisted assigned. (DS9: "Starship Down", "The Ship") As such, chiefs were often among the actual leaders in a Starfleet organization, and could even hold the authoritative position of Chief of Operations. Chiefs served with distinction in most Starfleet branches and specialties, but were particularly visible in engineering and other technical trades. (DS9: "Hippocratic Oath")


So O'Brien didn't really get shafted by not getting an officer's commission.

Whill wrote:
I've come to dread all Kira/Bajoran episodes, and I can't stand the Bajoran priesthood (any of the characters: the love interest, the lady, etc.).


Some of those Kira/Bajoran episodes are pretty compelling for me. One of my favorites of those episodes was the Season 5 episode "The Darkness and The Light," a very potent look into Kira's past as a Bajoran freedom fighter...or as a terrorist, depending on who you ask. That episode shows just how fine the line between the two really can be.

Whill wrote:
But most sadly, almost half-way through the series and I still don't enjoy Ben Sisko. I still think the actor is not so great - His inflections on some of his line deliveries are terrible.


I never had a problem with Avery Brooks' acting. And the guy's a veteran actor who's been in the business for decades. I still remember fondly his time as Hawk from Spencer: For Hire (which is the only thing I ever saw him in before DS9). I thought it was a huge improvement when the Paramount executives finally let him shave his head. It was a change on par with Riker growing the beard on TNG.

Whill, whereabouts are you in watching through DS9 now? Which season are you in presently?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Rank Trek Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Whill, whereabouts are you in watching through DS9 now? Which season are you in presently?

Season 4. Today at lunch I watched half of "Homefront" where Sisko and Odo go to Earth because of a bombing with suspected changeling activity. I think this is a two-parter. Finally, the Dominion plot progresses.

EDIT: I finished Homefront and Paradise Lost last night. I was about uncovering a Starfleet conspiracy involving a rogue admiral because the Federation isn't handling the Dominion threat to his satisfaction. It was quite meh.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late to the party, but...

CRMcNeill wrote:
There is also the old FASA Star Trek RPG out there, that goes into a lot of universe-building detail, even about things rarely touched on in the series. There's an entire sourcebook on the Orions, for example.
I played in (and eventually co-GMed) a very rules light FASA Trek for 2-3 years before starting up my old Star Wars campaign. We did a lot using the Triangle sourcebook which was a 3-corners area of space between Federation, Klingon, and Romulan spaces. We had one mission in Orion space where the GM used the Orion sourcebook. Several of the PCs had to go undercover, disguised as Orions.

Good times. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Late to the party, but...

CRMcNeill wrote:
There is also the old FASA Star Trek RPG out there, that goes into a lot of universe-building detail, even about things rarely touched on in the series. There's an entire sourcebook on the Orions, for example.
I played in (and eventually co-GMed) a very rules light FASA Trek for 2-3 years before starting up my old Star Wars campaign. We did a lot using the Triangle sourcebook which was a 3-corners area of space between Federation, Klingon, and Romulan spaces. We had one mission in Orion space where the GM used the Orion sourcebook. Several of the PCs had to go undercover, disguised as Orions.

Good times. Very Happy


I don't have very many of those old FASA Star Trek sourcebooks, but I do remember mentions of the Triangle and how the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire essentially and/or closely met in that area of space.

Sadly, though, if this is the canon map for Star Trek, the place where the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire all meet isn't quite triangle shaped anymore....
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must confess, I can't read the title of this topic without thinking about this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Sadly, though, if this is the canon map for Star Trek, the place where the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire all meet isn't quite triangle shaped anymore....
Where is the colorful map from?
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