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Power Control (The Far Orbit Project)
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Potroclo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

By that definition, you could use Repair to pilot the ship because turning left or increasing speed is temporarily modifying its course and engine settings.

You could force a ship to turn left or increase speed with Repair, the same way you can force a car to turn left or accelerate form the engine bay, but it's not piloting because you have no feedback. It's something you force the ship to do, not a response to the environment e.g.: an obstacle, and you don't really control the outcome.

CRMcNeill wrote:
If the ship is designed from the outset as being able to transfer power from one system to another as needed, then that's not a Repair.

I don't think power rerouting is something all ships are designed to do, on most ships it must probably be a modification made by the owner, and in any case it's not a function available to the pilot, except if rigged that way and in this case it would be limited to what the rig is set to do. (Like "nitro boost" on a car). But this might be the key to why our interpretations of the rule differ. (Appart from semantic interpretation)

CRMcNeill wrote:
For example, if I turn on the Air Conditioning in my car, I'm literally rerouting power from the engine (increased resistance from the AC Compressor causes a minute decrease in engine power and/or increase in fuel consumption) to the internal climate control system.
But you don't need to know how AC works in order to activate it, and in any case you can't redirect power from the AC to, say, the car lights from the driver's (pilot) seat. Which a car mechanic (Repair) could do by connecting the AC compressor's wires to the lights from the engine bay (I guess this can't actually be done without frying something but you get my point Laughing ).

But you bring an interesting point. I'ld say if the ship has power transfer built in or rigged as a function (a button...) in the piloting post, you should be able to use Piloting to redirect power within the rig's limits. If not and by default, or when rerouting power to a system that's not designed from the outset or rigged to do so, it's a Repair roll.

In my case I consider normal operation of a spacecraft to require a Piloting skill, power transfer as stated in the aforementioned rules would not be normal operation (that's why it's an additional rule) so it's Repair. But if a player now tells me he wants to rig the ship's computer so the pilot can transfer power, it will then be considered normal operation (so Piloting), provided the necessary modifications (Repair) are succesfull.

Does this make sense?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is not a normal operation? Did you play X-Wing? Power transfer between shields, lasers and engines was as simple as hitting a button or two on your keyboard. And if it's useful in combat (which it appears to be since pretty much every ship in that game was capable of doing it), I fail to see why it wouldn't be designed in from the outset with as user-friendly an interface as possible. And sure, if a civilian ship had no guns and no shields, then it wouldn't really need it (assuming you can't divert auxiliary power to the ship's particle shields and increase its Hull dice), but how many ships in the game stay that way, assuming they're kept around at all?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Why is not a normal operation? Did you play X-Wing? Power transfer between shields, lasers and engines was as simple as hitting a button or two on your keyboard. And if it's useful in combat (which it appears to be since pretty much every ship in that game was capable of doing it), I fail to see why it wouldn't be designed in from the outset with as user-friendly an interface as possible. And sure, if a civilian ship had no guns and no shields, then it wouldn't really need it (assuming you can't divert auxiliary power to the ship's particle shields and increase its Hull dice), but how many ships in the game stay that way, assuming they're kept around at all?


I think that using a video game from almost 30 years ago to support your argument is a bit of a stretch. The button you press in the game might be telling your astromech droid to reroute power, which would be a repair roll made by the droid.

I'm looking at this from the position of a GM. Do you know who spends entire space battles sitting around twiddling their thumbs? The group's tech. There needs to be a division of labor between various crew members, and if the pilot is able to do everything, then no one else is doing anything. I know that you feel like it should be an operations check. Take a look at everything Anakin had to do to re-route power to restart one of his pod engines. He had all of the controls right there in front of him, it took swapping plugs around and toggling the switch to get the engine started. Now, his engine had taken damage, yes, but he had to route power to get it going again.

Pilot flies, gunners shoot, tech handles power and battle triage. Now everyone has something to do.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I think that using a video game from almost 30 years ago to support your argument is a bit of a stretch.

And we are discussing a tabletop game that was released six years before the video game, both based on a film that came out ten years before the tabletop game, so “outdated” as a disqualifying argument doesn’t hold much water.

Quote:
The button you press in the game might be telling your astromech droid to reroute power, which would be a repair roll made by the droid.

And only two fighters in the game come equipped with astromechs (X-Wings and Y-Wings), but all the fighters are equipped with auxiliary power. If you’re looking for the most canon of examples, see ANH, specifically Han’s “Chewie, lock in the auxiliary power” line, to which Chewie responds by toggling a lever on the console.

Quote:
I'm looking at this from the position of a GM. Do you know who spends entire space battles sitting around twiddling their thumbs? The group's tech. There needs to be a division of labor between various crew members, and if the pilot is able to do everything, then no one else is doing anything.

The medic doesn’t have much to do either, but that doesn’t mean he should be allowed to roll First Aid to repair battle damage. Not having applicable skills is unfortunate, but that’s just impetus to diversify CP expenditure on your character’s skill set.

Quote:
Take a look at everything Anakin had to do to re-route power to restart one of his pod engines. He had all of the controls right there in front of him, it took swapping plugs around and toggling the switch to get the engine started. Now, his engine had taken damage, yes, but he had to route power to get it going again.

The different there is that Anakin’s pod racer had actually taken damage (pre-race sabotage by Sebulba). In that case, repair would be appropriate, but in a case where there is nothing wrong with the ship/vehicle, there is nothing there to repair.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What skill is used to jury-rig something, that works fine, for more output?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
What skill is used to jury-rig something, that works fine, for more output?

But in the case of normal power switching, you aren’t jury-rigging. You’re flipping a switch on a control console, making the ship perform a function it has been designed and built to perform. Repair would be appropriate for installing auxiliary power switching system on a ship that didn’t have it, or upgrading an existing system, but once that’s done, all you’re doing is using a ship’s system that isn’t damaged and is working as intended.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Raven Redstar wrote:
It also covers making modifications, which this could be considered as a temporary modification.


Exactly. Want to get more juice out of the engines, the TECH is the one to do it. NOT the pilot.

By that definition, you could use Repair to pilot the ship because turning left or increasing speed is temporarily modifying its course and engine settings.


Some times i wonder, do you argue, just for the sake of arguing..

Have you ever watched a naval film? EVERY time they try to 'push more juice out of the engines' ITS THE ENGINEERS doing it. Just like in Star trek, its SCOTTY, not Zulu (the pilot) who's trying to do so..
THAT IS why its repair/engineers who are the ones to re-route power.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the engineers in that scenario ARE NOT REPAIRING THE SHIP. They are operating ship systems. Just because a ship's engineering department performs repairs using the Repair skill does not mean that all of the engineer's tasks fall under the aegis of that skill.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it, because we almost never agree, but I'm with garhkal on this one. I'm bowing out since things seem to be getting a little heated.

The OP asked what skill was used, I chimed in based on my experience at my table. I'm not going to argue the finer points of modification and repair versus operation in this scenario since I've already come to a decision which is even being supported by our local grognard.

I like you and respect your position McNeill, I just don't agree with it in this instance.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine, and I realize the argument is mainly semantical, but words have meaning. If Repair skills had a broader definition (such as being named Capital Ship Systems), I could see the point, but the literal definition of "repair" is "to fix or mend something suffering from damage or fault." Playing around with settings on a piece of equipment that is neither damaged nor faulty is, by definition, not an act of repair.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That's fine, and I realize the argument is mainly semantical, but words have meaning. If Repair skills had a broader definition (such as being named Capital Ship Systems), I could see the point, but the literal definition of "repair" is "to fix or mend something suffering from damage or fault." Playing around with settings on a piece of equipment that is neither damaged nor faulty is, by definition, not an act of repair.


Maybe. BUT take me, an Electronics Technician, vs say someone who's a Radio operator.
DO YOU think that the operator will be able to 'tweak settings on a radio set', to get more juice out of it? Tweak its sensitivity settings to receive weaker signals?? OR do you think I, the technician would???

Here's a hint. ITS not the radioman!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much "button pushing and switch flipping" does a commarsial airline pilot "do"
or a fighter pilot.

Just look at the cockpit, most if not all the switches and buttons are power rerouting.

As to power rerouting in game terms I see this as a "reapir" action, where you can not simply flip that switch or press that button, but have to actually open the wall panel and move the wires to actually reroute a powerflow.

A good example would be apollo 13, everthing they did with switches and the like was Operation/Piloting
Once they had to change the batteries, the air filters and transfer power from the module to the lander was rerouting.

the initial flipping of the switch was part of piloting
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...
garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
By that definition, you could use Repair to pilot the ship because turning left or increasing speed is temporarily modifying its course and engine settings.

Some times i wonder, do you argue, just for the sake of arguing.
Raven Redstar wrote:
I hate to say it, because we almost never agree, but I'm with garhkal on this one. I'm bowing out since things seem to be getting a little heated.

The OP asked what skill was used, I chimed in based on my experience at my table. I'm not going to argue the finer points of modification and repair versus operation in this scenario since I've already come to a decision which is even being supported by our local grognard.

I like you and respect your position McNeill, I just don't agree with it in this instance.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I realize the argument is mainly semantical, but words have meaning. If Repair skills had a broader definition (such as being named Capital Ship Systems), I could see the point, but the literal definition of "repair" is "to fix or mend something suffering from damage or fault." Playing around with settings on a piece of equipment that is neither damaged nor faulty is, by definition, not an act of repair.

I can't believe the "discussion" I read in this thread. "Semantical" is not the word I would use, but let's not get bogged down by semantics! You have another thread right now about clarifying RAW skill names, but here you are getting way overly hung up on the word "Repair" as if that was chiseled in stone on Mount Sinai. OBVIOUSLY, the "repair" skills do more than just 'repair' per RAW. For example, as pointed out, they also modify completely undamaged technologies - R&E p. 59-65 is quite explicit about this. Now if you want to restrict the skills more than RAW according to strict word definitions for your own game, of course you are free to do that, but in the spirit of your other thread, wouldn't it make more sense to simply rename the skills more generally to encompass all of its purposes?

On R&E p.39, the authors of R&E wrote:
Grenade
Time Taken: One round.
Specializations: Kind or model of grenade – thermal detonator, anti-vehicle grenade.

Grenade is the "ranged combat" skill to throw grenades. Success means the grenade hits the location it was thrown to. Failure means it lands somewhere else.

This skill covers throwing other objects like rocks and balls.

On R&E p.40, the authors of R&E wrote:
Pick Pocket
Time Taken: One round.
Characters use pick pocket to pick the pockets of others, or to palm objects without being noticed.

When a character makes a pick pocket attempt, the victim makes an opposed search or Perception roll to notice it.

Player: I'm going to throw this grenade-shaped, grenade-sized, grenade-massed rock with the Grenade skill...
GM: No. The definition of the word "grenade" does not include that nonexplosive rock. Skill name words have meaning.
Player: OK, I'm going to use the Pick Pocket skill to try to palm this rock without notice so I can use it later...
GM: No. That does not involve picking from someone else's pocket so you can't use that skill.

Your argument for power routing seems to be advocating the above GMing. Instead of being an a-hole GM and restricting my players based on word definitions, I renamed some skills. Sleight of hand (which comes from Purgatory D6) includes all uses of sleight of hands, not just picking pockets. Grenade has been renamed to more accurately reflect it being a general throwing skill in my game.

If Repair skills had a broader definition (such as being named Capital Ship Systems)? In the other thread, skills can be renamed to clarify their broader definition, so why not in this thread too? If you want your skill names to more accurately reflect their functions, then you are free to change them. "...Piloting" skills can become "...Operation" skills, and "...Repair" skills can become "...Systems" or "...Tech" skills.

The argument that a house rule for power routing should use Mechanical skills based on the strict definitions of RAW names for Technical skills is utterly meaningless.

~~~

CRMcNeill wrote:
Why is not a normal operation? Did you play X-Wing? Power transfer between shields, lasers and engines was as simple as hitting a button or two on your keyboard.

You cite this video game as if it some kind of authority on D6 RPG game mechanics. Was this particular game made from an interview with George Lucas? Was it programmed based on the D6 system? If not, I don't see how this video game's rules and functions are in any may more authoritative in devising D6 game mechanics. Instead of just saying this game does it this way so that's the way it should be in the RPG, I challenge you to start a brand new thread and present an actual case of why SW D6 game mechanics in general should emulate this particular video game. What makes X-Wing so special? My premise is that this game is just one of dozens of video games that present a reality extremely far-fetched from the reality of the films (what the RPG was primarily designed to simulate). Prove me wrong. Now if you would rather clarify that you just like this video game and that you just want power routing to be as easy as the press of a button in your SWU, that's fine but that would just be a personal preference and you should not expect anyone else to follow the reality of that game just because you choose to.

~~~

garhkal wrote:
Have you ever watched a naval film? EVERY time they try to 'push more juice out of the engines' ITS THE ENGINEERS doing it. Just like in Star trek, its SCOTTY, not Zulu (the pilot) who's trying to do so..
THAT IS why its repair/engineers who are the ones to re-route power.

Raven Redstar wrote:
The button you press in the game might be telling your astromech droid to reroute power, which would be a repair roll made by the droid.

I'm looking at this from the position of a GM. Do you know who spends entire space battles sitting around twiddling their thumbs? The group's tech. There needs to be a division of labor between various crew members, and if the pilot is able to do everything, then no one else is doing anything. I know that you feel like it should be an operations check. Take a look at everything Anakin had to do to re-route power to restart one of his pod engines. He had all of the controls right there in front of him, it took swapping plugs around and toggling the switch to get the engine started. Now, his engine had taken damage, yes, but he had to route power to get it going again.

Pilot flies, gunners shoot, tech handles power and battle triage. Now everyone has something to do.

Bingo. Pilots already have plenty to do in space combat scenes. Unless a tech character is actively repairing damage or jury-rigging something, the tech has nothing to do. If a GM thinks Mechanical skills would be more suited to power routing there is nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with them thinking it should Technical skills. I think I'll edit my rule to allow either skill to be used, player's choice. But the rule as posted is written with RAW skill names, while my personal game's skill names are more encompassing of all their functions.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Power Control (Pirates and Privateers) Reply with quote

Deacon Rayne wrote:
Whill wrote:
We discussed this deficient rule earlier this year in the below thread:
Power Routing for freighters

And here is the direct post in the middle of the thread with the House Rule I came up with:
Power Routing for Space Transports

You may find it more valuable to read the whole thread for all the discussion and context, so I shared that URL first. But if you want a shortcut directly to the rule I came up, I included that too. I hope this helps.

Thank you, oh dark lord - I mean "Chancellor"

You're welcome. I closed this thread so please feel free to discuss the rules in the thread I shared. Thank you.
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