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New Starship Damage Chart
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A random thought...

One obvious result that should be on the damage chart is having the deflector shield covering a particular arc be damaged ("Sir, we just lost the main rear deflector shield; one more direct hit on the back quarter and we're done for!"), and yet there is not damage result that renders Shields unable to cover a particular arc.

I haven't really considered how to deal with this, but I'd like to hear your thoughts...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve been thinking for a while about how to do precision strikes, as in, a starfighter specifically aiming for a freighter’s engines. Here’s what I’m thinking...
    1). Gunner declares which system he’s targeting: Maneuvering, Sensors, Weapons, Hyperdrive, Shields or Engines.

    2). Gunner then rolls to attack at -2D (effectively, shooting at a smaller Scale target).

    3). On a successful hit, do not roll on the random chart to see which system was damaged; just apply the result to the declared system as indicated by the Damage roll (Lightly Damaged, Heavily Damaged, etc.)

    4). On Severely Damaged, use the following results
      Maneuvering = Controls Damaged
      Shields = Overloaded Reactor
      Engines = Dead In Space

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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Hull breach, internal fires, artificial gravity failure, inertial compensator failure, etc. A lot of stuff can go wrong when a ship takes damage.

So, some thoughts on this...

I'd like the Critical Damage Chart to be a 1D roll to randomly generate a problem, possibly with one result being a "Roll Twice," to generate multiple malfunctions.

As far as the Malfunctions themselves, I have some thoughts on how to rule that out...
    Hull Breach - Using my Environmental Damage Rules, if a ship suffers a Hull Breach, the internal atmosphere becomes Type II at the beginning of the next round. 1D Rounds later, it drops to Type III, then Type IV 1D Rounds after that. A drop in Temperature would also be appropriate.

    Fire- Using my Fire Damage Rules, a ship would take an Automatic Fire Damage every round, with the Damage Level dictated by how badly the ship was damaged when the fire started. Unless extinguished, the automatic Damage roll will increase every round, eventually destroying the ship. Also, the smoke would slowly shift the Atmosphere Type and Temperature up.

    Artificial Gravity - For this, use the gravity rules in the Planets Compendium or Scouts book, with ships either dropping to Light Gravity for 1D Rounds before dropping to Zero-G, or fluctuating back and forth between Light, Standard or Heavy on a round-by-round basis.

    Structural Damage - Pipes or electrical wires fall from the overhead, internal bulkheads are wrenched, sealing hatches shut, general inconvenience. Mostly an opportunity for the GM to throw obstacles in the PCs' path.

    Inertial Compensator - I'm questioning this one, as the acceleration rates involved for SW ships must be measured in hundreds or even thousands. At that rate, if an Inertial Compensator were to give out completely, any organic crew would be killed instantly by high-velocity impact with the nearest aft bulkhead. I'd like some suggestions as to how this could be done in such a way that it mostly inconveniences the crew, instead of killing them outright.

I'm also thinking of changing up the Catastrophic Damage rule into something along the lines of "She's Coming Apart!" where the GM rolls three times on the Critical Damage Table to generate internal conditions on the ship during the short period of time in which the characters have to get to the escape pods before the ship blows up.

Anyway, just me rambling, but I wanted to get it written down before bed.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Inertial Compensator - I'm questioning this one, as the acceleration rates involved for SW ships must be measured in hundreds or even thousands. At that rate, if an Inertial Compensator were to give out completely, any organic crew would be killed instantly by high-velocity impact with the nearest aft bulkhead. I'd like some suggestions as to how this could be done in such a way that it mostly inconveniences the crew, instead of killing them outright.


Thousands.

It could be "just a little bit out-of-sync" with propulsion system (a fraction of a percentage). Thus any manueuvers, speed changes inflict 1D or more, for example, gentle turn could inflict - 1D if no seatbelt fastened, but 180 degrees could go as high as 5D or more if speed change included. Some actions could require stamina checks to avoid loosing consciousness. Just some loose ideas.
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Last edited by Darklighter79 on Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Inertial Compensator - I'm questioning this one, as the acceleration rates involved for SW ships must be measured in hundreds or even thousands. At that rate, if an Inertial Compensator were to give out completely, any organic crew would be killed instantly by high-velocity impact with the nearest aft bulkhead. I'd like some suggestions as to how this could be done in such a way that it mostly inconveniences the crew, instead of killing them outright.

There are multiple routes you could go with this. No, it wouldn't necessarily be instant death for the crew. Without inertial compensators, it is only acceleration, deceleration, and changing direction that would have any effect on the crew.

If the Inertial Compensator suddenly goes out during combat in outer space, the engines could cut out instantly as a failsafe to protect the crew (and everything else not bolted down in the ship). Then the ship would continue moving at the same velocity (speed and direction) at the moment the engines cut out. Unless acted upon by an external force, a ship moving at a constant velocity would be the same experience for everyone inside as a ship as not moving at all. Of course they could be acted upon by an external force and it could be more dangerous. Tractor beams could even be deadly to the crew.

As a b option to the above, the engine don't cut out on their own and it is up to the pilot to notice the Compensator going out and has to immediately stop acceleration, decelerating, or turning the ship. If the pilot fails a roll to react in time then squash.

Another option is that the Compensator doesn't cut out immediately. There is a warning that it is going to go out in so many rounds. That gives the captain/pilot time to decide what to do. Surrender, dump their cargo, destroy the enemy, escape to hyperspace, etc. Of course if they go the hyperspace route, they can travel at a constant speed (and maybe inertia isn't even applicable at FTL speed because laws of physics are different there), but they better fix the Compensator before coming out of lightspeed.

Another option for freighters or larger is that when the main Compensator goes out, there is a backup Compensator that just creates local fields around the occupants to protect them from the full inertia. Maybe these are lesser strength fields so more dangerous. Maybe they are restricted in their movements because these fields do not follow them around the ship. And maybe they and the ship are internally still in danger from loose objects flying around.

Another option is the Compensator doesn't go completely out, but it just becomes less effective and so changing the speed and direction of the ship are a little more difficult and dangerous, but not instant splat.

I understand that Inertial Compensation is just one of those miracle technologies like hyperdrives that make the genre possible and are generally taken for granted, but it just doesn't make sense to me that the technology is 100% safe from damage/failure. I'm ok with it being a low chance, but the chance should still be there.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But automatic safety cut-outs for hyperdrives, at least, are presumed to be pretty effective. I like your suggestion of the main compensator kicking out and localized backups automatically engaging, perhaps imposing hard limits on the ship's performance until the main compensator can be repaired. It also ties into my idea on the cloaking devices topic, so that the main compensator could actually be manually switched off to reduce the ship's gravitic signature, with the consequent loss of performance.

Fo smaller ships, Darklighter's idea of the g-forces inflicting Stun damage is a good one, too, and also has precedent in the EU (see Wraith Squadron book 1, and the death of Jesmin Ackbar).

Much to grok...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Fo smaller ships, Darklighter's idea of the g-forces inflicting Stun damage is a good one, too, and also has precedent in the EU (see Wraith Squadron book 1, and the death of Jesmin Ackbar).

Makes sense to me.

CRMcNeill wrote:
But automatic safety cut-outs for hyperdrives, at least, are presumed to be pretty effective.

True but that is not the same things going on as with inertial compensation.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I like your suggestion of the main compensator kicking out and localized backups automatically engaging, perhaps imposing hard limits on the ship's performance until the main compensator can be repaired. It also ties into my idea on the cloaking devices topic, so that the main compensator could actually be manually switched off to reduce the ship's gravitic signature, with the consequent loss of performance.

Switch off the Inertial Compensator and Artificial Gravity both to reduce the gravitic signature, right?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Quote:
But automatic safety cut-outs for hyperdrives, at least, are presumed to be pretty effective.

True but that is not the same things going on as with inertial compensation.
Yes, but a hard-wired, extremely difficult to bypass safety system is a decent explanation for why the ship’s performance is suddenly limited until the primary compensator is repaired.

Quote:
Switch off the Inertial Compensator and Artificial Gravity both to reduce the gravitic signature, right?

My thinking is that artificial gravity is going to have much less of a gravities signature than the acceleration compensator due to how much more gravity the compensator is required to neutralize. My initial suggestion was that the compensator be “dialed down” with an attendant loss of performance, but your suggestion got me thinking that the main compensator could be shut off entirely, leaving the localized, low power backups on, and thus the reduction in performance while “running silent” and suffering damage to the compensator would both be the result of automatic safety limiters cutting in.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill alluded to this above, but I feel it bears repeating:

Inertia is in effect at all times. At constant speed, acceleration is 0. So there is no danger of being slammed into by the back bulkhead of a ship.

Also, once in motion, the relative acceleration is much less drastic: the crew is already moving forward, so an increase in the ship's speed isn't going to have as accute an effect.

Also, if the crew are strapped in with support on their aft side, then the ship will effectively "push" them along, rather than accelerate its aft bulkhead toward them.

Blackouts, nose bleeds and things like that should still be possible (that is, likely) in a situation wherein the compensators fail.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
At constant speed, acceleration is 0.
Yes. Exactly.

The problem comes when there is a change in speed or in direction.

How big a problem that is depends on what sort of Gs a Star Wars ship can exert. And that is, to say the least, not well known.

Unlike a game like Traveller, WEG never aligned space speeds and distances in the game with real world speeds and distances. And non-WEG sources don't sync up (and sometimes completely contradict) the available game information. Net result, the lack of a compensator could mean the crew pulls 10Gs (blackout and possible traume) or it might mean 100Gs or 1000gs or more (splat!).

In addition to not having definitive numbers for how many Gs a ship can generate, we don't know what fraction of acceleration the compensators are supposed to compensate against. Is it 75%, 90%, 99%, 99.9%, or 100%? And is there any sort of upper limit on the number of Gs that it can compensate for?

Some Legends info* says that Jek Porkins set his compensator at 100% so he'd be comfier and as a result he may have neglected to pull out of a dive soon enough. It goes on to say that the usual setting is 95% - 97%. But those numbers aren't canon and I don't think we can take that comment as necessarily definitive for WEG rules. If ships can and do generate 1000Gs of acceleration and if compensators are set at 97% efficiency (or less) than crews are going to be pulling 30Gs. That's not splat, but that's more than sufficient to blackout and damage a modern pilot in a G-suit.

* X-wing: Rogue Squadron
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I suppose then that the structural integrity of the ship should also come into play if the compensators fail. If a pilot banks hard left to avoid an obstacle or an attack, a ship that is not sufficiently rigid will twist/warp and maybe even snap into two or more pieces... especially if different parts of the ship are characteristically different in rigidity, which is a near certainty, since some parts are subject more or less to the heat from the engines, heat from weapons, and heat from power sources, etc.

The bigger the ship (dimensionally) the more drastic this effect.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay...

I haven't had a day off in at least three weeks, so I'm a bit frazzled at the moment. So I'll do my best...

There are two ways to view the physics of the SWU:
    1) As occurring in a parallel universe where the laws of physics don't apply, and ships in space behave as the might in an atmosphere, where some aspect of the medium creates drag that must be counteracted by constant application of thrust.

    2). As occurring in a vacuum, subject to Newtonian physics, as countered by sufficiently advanced technology that said physics are not readily apparent on screen.
Of the two, I'm partial to the latter. In particular, SW tech appears to be able to "bend" a linear trajectory without needing to reorient the ship and burn the main drive to alter course.

Next, a couple key points on Space Units, one stated clearly by WEG, the other inferred by how SUs are applied in practice:
    1) Space Units are proportional, not fixed (see the 2R&E Rulebook, page 123)

    2) Space Units represent different things depending on how they are used, and trying to force them to conform to one aspect or another weakens their usefulness in their other applications.

Now, with regard to my view of SUs as ship speed representing acceleration, here's an example:
    Let's suppose two ships are sitting at rest (zero acceleration) relative to each other, at a point in space we'll call Point X. Point X is not a fixed point relative to anything, and serves merely as a starting and reference point.

    Now, suppose both ships begin traveling along the same vector, but at different speeds: Ship A is moving at 12 SUs, and Ship B is moving at 6 SUs. At the end of one round, Ship A cuts thrust, and is now moving at 0 SUs relative to its previous speed. However - and this is key - Ship A is still moving away from Point X at 12 SUs, and will continue to do so indefinitely. From the perspective of Ship B, Ship A has come to a dead stop, and Ship B will overtake and pass Ship A in the following round.

Viewed thusly, any ship in motion measured in SUs is accelerating relative to something else, with the ship's crew subject to the effects of acceleration if not protected by an acceleration compensator. The various speed levels represent different "throttle settings" that modify whatever the ship's base acceleration rate is (measured in SUs).

From there, maneuvering a ship as seen on screen is the result of advanced tech "bending" said ship's trajectory in a new direction, in similar fashion to using a natural gravity well to alter a ship's course without using its drive. My initial theory is that the main acceleration compensator somehow shunts any acceleration experienced by the ship into its ethereal rudder / lateral controls, but I digress.

Naturally, any such system can get out of hand very quickly, as ships that accelerate long enough start running into temporal issues, but the vast majority of starship interaction (and realspace travel in general) occurs at such short ranges that temporal distortion is rarely an issue.

Anyway, the end result is that if a ship is doing anything other than sitting at zero thrust, it's accelerating somewhere, which in turn requires acceleration compensation; the greater the acceleration, the greater the compensation. As such, anything that impedes the effectiveness of the acceleration compensator (combat damage or deliberately dialing it down to reduce its sensor signature) limits how much acceleration the ship (particularly its crew) can be exposed to.

Anyway, it's late, and that's how I see it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lost me at "still moving away from point X at 12SU."

Acceleration of 0 is different than movement of 0. The ship moving at 6SU will NEVER catch up to one moving at 12SU, even if it accelerates to 12SU the next round. It would have to reach a speed of 12.x or better to begin catching up OR ship A would have to decelerate below the speed (that is, velocity) of ship B.

All that being said, I'm not sure if it even matters to the issue of compensators.

FWIW, I just assume that ships are engineered to accelerate at a rate that even a weak being can withstand. Maybe 1-3 Gs and eschew things like acceleration compensators when they start to complicate the verisimilitude of the SWU.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But acceleration is cumulative. Ship B is still moving at 6 SUs, and thus will move 12 SUs the following round, accelerating at 6 SUs per round per round. So it is continuing to accelerate, and will overtake and pass Ship A, which is no longer accelerating, even though it is still coasting away from Point X at 12 SUs per round.
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