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Mamatried Commodore


Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1902 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think the best is to boil this down to a "commando course"
a basic training set all special forces have as a minimum.
beyond that we can then try to make specializations based on that.
if we take ww2 commando trianing as a start this is fairly easy to emulate within the rules.
the commadoes were trained in raiding tactics, not to take and hold objectives for the most part, though as soldiers their trianing before becoomming commadoes would allow them the ability to a degree if needed.
As I see it with the skills we have avalible the ww2 commadoes would have something like this
increase dex
increase per
increase str
blaster
brawling parry
dodge
grandes
melee combat
melee parry
run
survival
tactics
willpower
command
hide
search
sneak
brawling
climbing/jumping
stamina
swimming
first aid
communications
demolitions
and when they have gotten this thrianing they would be selected by aptitude for snaiper, radio, instuctors, divers, driver etc etc....and then recive the additional training needed to fill this role. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | It’s not unrealistic for units to be environment focused in a universe where so many of the planets are described in terms of their predominant environment (forest moon, ice world, desert planet, etc.), but I agree that the mission-oriented SpecForce types (Pathfinders, Heavy Weapons, etc.) would be better integrated into the environment-focused ones.
As far as duplicating US Special Forces, I think it goes beyond just duplicating the familiar. Liaison/Training detachments will be a huge force multiplier for building new Alliance movements or improving the effectiveness of existing ones, and this is vastly more important to the Alliance than the US, seeing as how the Alliance doesn’t have a massive, powerful military to fall back on.
As for a Ranger-equivalent unit, the need is somewhat less clear, as the various environment-specialist regiments you’re suggesting would be able to perform this function. However, I’ve always gotten the impression that SpecForces were much more small unit oriented, and generally dispersed across the galaxy, so a generalist unit that can make company/battalion/regimental level assaults on high value targets would fill a need that SpecForce doesn’t necessarily cover. |
Not sure if this is directly in response to my post (?)
What I think makes more logical sense than RoE is to have mission-focused units rather than environment based units. For example, instead of Urban Combat Specialists and Wilderness Fighters, we have SpecForce Raiders (actual name TBD).
Then, among raiders, there may be some units whose AO requires additional, environment-specific equipment or training.
Using USSF as an example, all Green Berets are Green Berets, but each group specializes in a different part of the world. Naturally, you can put one SF soldier into any SF unit and he'll do fine, but his actual experience may focus more on arctic environments, while someone in another group may be more focused on tropical areas, etc.
So depending where a unit is garrisoned or where it's area of responsibility is, it may have more of this and baseline of that. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think that's making a big assumption about the availability of personnel for the Alliance when spread across an entire galaxy. Having different regiments with different missions which then sub-specialize for different environments makes for longer reaction times, say, where a raid-specialized unit trained for desert environments has to sit idle while waiting for a recon-specialized unit to deploy from the neighboring sector, or even further, depending on availability within Alliance command. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | I think that's making a big assumption about the availability of personnel for the Alliance when spread across an entire galaxy. Having different regiments with different missions which then sub-specialize for different environments makes for longer reaction times, say, where a raid-specialized unit trained for desert environments has to sit idle while waiting for a recon-specialized unit to deploy from the neighboring sector, or even further, depending on availability within Alliance command. |
I don't think so. I think there's some misunderstanding about what I want to do.
Instead of having environmentally focused units, there are mission focused elements. A raiding force is proficient in any emvironment. But if they happen to operate in colder climates due to their AO, they will just so happen to be better than other troops in that particular environment.
Its way more complicated to maintain evironmentally focused troops than to maintain mission-type specific troops.
Rangers, for example, will go wherever. The "trick" is simply not specializing in Survival, TBH. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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This just occurred to me, but is it possible that the form taken by SpecForces is hugely dependent on the available personnel and how they gained their combat experience? As in, we're looking at it from the perspective of a regular military, able to recruit and organize according to an institutional model. The Alliance, however, is forced to make do with what it has, and what it has are the cream of a hugely irregular and disparate force. So Urban Specialists aren't trained as such, they're local resistance forces who've learned about Urban Warfare the hard way, by on-the-job training, with all the attendant losses that come with it. Same thing for the various Wilderness units, each specialized in their own particular environment through hard personal experience. Maybe Madine was smart enough to realize that he couldn't take the same approach with SpecForces that he took with the Storm Commandos because of what he had to work with. So he picked the best of the best from across the galaxy and formed them into all-star units based not on what he considered the ideal form, but on what would work best with the troops he had without taking the time for a major retraining.
And what resulted was a conglomeration of environment-oriented generalist forces supported by specialist units like Infiltrators, Heavy Weapons, etc, with the environment-oriented forces providing guidance to the specialist units w/r/t operating in their particular environment. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, that makes some sense.
The difficulty would be in having enough of a particular type of soldier to get the job done.
I imagine, for example, that any given star system would have a complete spectrum of environments among its planets... even individual planets having a complete spectrum. Unless we are to suspend disbelief concerning seasons in Star Wars cosmology and meteorology.
It just seems that an individual soldier is much more useful if he can fight wherever. I mean, after all, what would an urban combat specialist do if he found himself in Minnesota during a blizzard at New Years? Or a dust storm in Baghdad in August?
As a compromise, I would theorize that human SpecForce troops would be best suited for flexible deployment, while more specialized species (such as Mon Calamari or Gungans or Wookiees) make up the wilderness-specific fighters, but that humans make up the majority (more well rounded) troop types. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | Yeah, that makes some sense.
The difficulty would be in having enough of a particular type of soldier to get the job done.
I imagine, for example, that any given star system would have a complete spectrum of environments among its planets... even individual planets having a complete spectrum. Unless we are to suspend disbelief concerning seasons in Star Wars cosmology and meteorology. |
Consider some of the planets featured in the films, though. Tatooine = entirely desert (or close enough not to matter), Yavin = mostly jungle, Hoth = ice world, Endor = Forest moon, Coruscant = One gargantuan city. Sure, a lot of planets are going to have that spectrum, but there is certainly a pattern of one particular terrain type dominating an entire planet.
And even on the full-spectrum planets, it's not like you can't have multiple troop types deployed where appropriate; the idea behind SpecForce is a modular system where you plug the appropriate troop types into the mission, so if you need forest, jungle, urban and snow environment troops all on the same planet, you assign some of each type with the appropriate supporting elements. The Alliance is hugely decentralized on a tactical level anyway, with high command mostly providing strategic guidance and support elements, so most SpecForce day-to-day operations are going to be coordinated through the local resistance forces and their Sector Command. There won't be a quick turn-around time on requests for specialized support.
Quote: | It just seems that an individual soldier is much more useful if he can fight wherever. I mean, after all, what would an urban combat specialist do if he found himself in Minnesota during a blizzard at New Years? Or a dust storm in Baghdad in August? |
Again, we're talking about ideal vs. reality. The Alliance may want to field a more well-rounded, mission-oriented special force, but in the absence of that, it works with what it has. One possibility that occured to me while writing this is that perhaps my proposed Strike Force portion of SpecForces might be the Alliance's attempt to grow a more conventional mission-oriented force out of the organization of necessity that formed SpecForces as described in the RASB.
Quote: | As a compromise, I would theorize that human SpecForce troops would be best suited for flexible deployment, while more specialized species (such as Mon Calamari or Gungans or Wookiees) make up the wilderness-specific fighters, but that humans make up the majority (more well rounded) troop types. |
That makes sense, especially since species optimized for living in specific environments are going to be optimized for fighting in them, as well. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Raven Redstar Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009 Posts: 2648 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Just in case I didn't mention it earlier, I'm really excited to see what you guys come up with. _________________ RR
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Raven Redstar wrote: | Just in case I didn't mention it earlier, I'm really excited to see what you guys come up with. |
Thanks, RR.
It's kind of a fun project. I'm still working out the lightsabers, too. So we will see some of that coming intermittantly between SpecForce updates. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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In response to CRMcNeill, I think my starting point will be to shave off the environmentally focused elements and form a "core" SpecForce regiment around Raiding specialists, Strike specialists, and Ambush specialists. I can also see SpaceOps as being a branch which specializes in VBSS, as that is a kind of mission in itself.
Incidentally, the US army has a raiding force (the Rangers) and a strike force (Delta). Green Berets are the UW specialists (Ambush), so I have some reference points for what the skill sets might look like.
The SpaceOps is similar to the Coast Guard, and the Pathfinders are similar to Air Force CCTs/Army Pathfinders (for the Recon Missions).
I'm thinking of folding the Techs into the other units such that they fall under the same commander (at the least) or are an integral part of the operational element (most preferred).
Then, the environmentally focused troops can form the spearhead of a mission where the environment is a critical factor in the operation. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10530 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | Raven Redstar wrote: | Just in case I didn't mention it earlier, I'm really excited to see what you guys come up with. |
Thanks, RR.
It's kind of a fun project. I'm still working out the lightsabers, too. So we will see some of that coming intermittantly between SpecForce updates. |
I'm looking forward to these things too. _________________ *
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Some thoughts...
I get the impression that you’re letting your personal experiences lead you, in the sense that, as a member of the US Army, you’re defaulting toward a particular ideal because it’s what you know and are familiar with. This is not a bad thing as such, but it may not be the correct thing. Special Forces have changed and evolved quite a bit just in the modern era since WW2, multiplied by the number of nations that have set up their own special forces units, and each has their own history and set of pressures and requirements that have led to the various forms they took as they evolved.
Alliance SpecForces will have their own history, and their own limitations and requirements that will be hugely different in many ways from the evolution of US Army Special Forces, so before you throw out what we know as inferior, make sure to consider what sorts of tactical and strategic realities forced it to take the form that it did.
One option would be to have your proposed version be what SpecForces evolved into post-Endor, once the Alliance went on the offensive. I have a write-up around somewhere for the formation of the Alliance Army that dovetails with this. The bare bones version looks something like this:-Pre-Endor, the Alliance stockpiles ground forces equipment for a regular Army, should the need arise.
-After Endor, the Alliance experiences a huge influx of personnel, allowing them to vastly expand their ground forces.
-SpecForces is reorganized, chopping the Wilderness and Urban units to Alliance Army as the core of a new Light Infantry branch, which is then combined with newly formed mounted forces (armor, mobile, aviation, artillery, etc).
-The remainder of SpecForces, now that the Alliance has some breathing room, moves away from an organizational form dictated by the Alliance’s strategic reality, and toward a more “conventional” model.
I think you’re wrong on Space Ops; they’re more like Marines, but in the classic sense, used for boarding, counter-boarding, shipboard security and - if needs be - light infantry for ground ops, with shuttle transport and cover from naval guns in orbit.
I’m also somewhat concerned about the possibility of overspecialization, of having all of these various “mission oriented” units be rendered unable to perform duties outside their nominal task should the sudden need arise. I never got the impression, for example, that Rangers were just a raiding force, but were also capable of performing strikes or recon as the situation required. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Your last paragrph gets at the essence of my point. Its just silly to have such highly specialized troops for every little thing.
Also, when your medics fall under a different commander than your urban combat specialists (or whomever), you create unnecessary bureaucratic processes associated with putting a team together. Not to mention the disruption of having a different medic every mission. Go ahead and insert engineers, commo techs, mechanics, heavy weapons and whatever else into the same problem.
A combat element needs to have all necessary personnel and equipment under one commander.
Since you mentioned the Rangers, we can use that as an example. They maintain a state of readiness that allows them to deploy anywhere on earth in 18 hours or less. That's not possible if Colonel McRanger has to call up General McBigstuff who then calls up Colonel McMedical Brigade and requisitions 12 combat medics for Colonel McRanger. Then they have to do the same thing with the heavy weapons, comm techs, etc, etc.
As for Space Ops, check out VBSS in order to understand where I'm coming from on this one.
Lastly, I'm not modeling each unit after the Army, but rather using what is available in the real world as a reference point for what a skill set would look like for a particular mission type (or spectrum of mission types).
What skills would a pathfinder have? I have an idea, but let's look at what actual pathfinders do and see what's out there. That's what I'm going for: using real military as a reference, not a copy/paste for D6 conversion.
So far, I've put together a "baseline" SpecForce trooper as the "starting point" for every soldier in SpecForce.
Then, I've added pips to skills based on the specific mission type, as well as any relevant specializations.
As it sits at the moment, I have a baseline troop, the SpaceOps, the "Raiders," "Strikers," "Guerrillas," and Pathfinders, as well as a couple of SpecTechs statted out (a planetary transportation crew tech and a space transportation crew tech, as well as a medic and an engineer).
What I might do is just post up the templates and let people decide how to organize it. But I'm also looking at assigning Techs to each of the main elements (Space Ops, Pathfinders, Raiders, Strikers, and Guerrillas). Still not sure whether heavy weapons should be separate... I'm really trying to wrap my head around it, but man.... it's just so illogical from a warfighting standpoint (especially when mobility is so important to the rebel alliance).
I honestly feel like whoever wrote the SpecForce organization was a 40k player...
Last edited by Naaman on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mamatried Commodore


Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1902 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:21 am Post subject: |
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If we look to special forces today, even the most specialized of the specialized ones, we see thay they all have the same skills and abilites to a point.
A US Army gree beret and a US Navy seal have the smae set of skills, as well as both having their own specializations. BUT they CAN do eachoter's job.
As to stat wars we know that crix madine helped develop the rebel special forces, he was an ex imperial commando, and we can take the inspiration there.
Lokk to WW2 and the british commadoes, they are the parent of all special forces as we know them.
lets get up a set of skills and a training regimen that is more or less the same.
Both navy and army forces will have blaster, survival and the like, so lets find out first the common training they all share, then we can from that make more specialized united.
But I am even tempted to go as far as ALL SPECIAL FORCES are the same, it is their secondaty training making them different and only that |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:51 am Post subject: |
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That is essentially what I have going. Though, to say that they can all do each other's job is a bit of an over simplification.
There is always going to be skill overlap with the grunts, but a SEAL and a Ranger are very different things. Individually, they may pass a lot of the same tests, but their missions and mentalities are different.
I think the SW SpecForce should reflect both the overlap and the nuanced differences between "types." |
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