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TauntaunScout
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 Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | I felt like Lucas was a neglectful parent to his creation prior to the sale |
Indeed. It only took three years after his film saga was complete for him to start contradicting it with TCW. |
In retrospect he didn't even wait till the OT was complete to license out contradictions. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | I felt like Lucas was a neglectful parent to his creation prior to the sale |
Indeed. It only took three years after his film saga was complete for him to start contradicting it with TCW. |
In retrospect he didn't even wait till the OT was complete to license out contradictions. |
In my mind that's two totally different things. Yes, Lucas allowed the EU to contradict the OT in some ways, but it was always established from the very onset of the EU that the g-canon trumps c-canon. So when the PT was made, it trumped the EU and introduced some retcons because again, g-canon trumps c-canon. For example, Boba Fett got a new origin, but it did not contradict the OT.
But three years after the PT and Lucas's six-film saga was completed, TCW came out. It so blatantly retconned the EU that it was officially established as t-canon, a tier above c-canon but officially still below g-canon. This was carte blanche for TCW to completely ignore any c-canon. However, in the process of overriding c-canon, TCW fundamentally changed key aspects of the films, such as the very character of Anakin/Vader. I've gone into the specifics of this at length in various threads over the years.
The point was, the EU was subservient to Lucas' films before the films were done. When all the money from RotS was made, Lucas had the TV show change the films because by that point the franchise marketability is all that mattered to sell it.
But I get now that you were referring to Lucas neglecting the franchise as a whole prior to the Disney sale, not specifically TCW which was after the films and leading up to the Disney sale. Since the continuity of TCW that contradicted Lucas' films was directly his own ideas, I view what he did as more active abuse than neglect. I feel that what Lucas did to his own films after they were done is a much worse crime than anything he ever did to the EU.
But anyway, let's please bring this thread back to the topic of TRoS. Of course, the ways that TRoS contradicts the other films are completely on the table!
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:20 am Post subject: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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https://www.moviequotesandmore.com/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-best-quotes/
| Quote: | Rey: Be with me. Be with me. Be with me.
[Rey hears the voices of past Jedi]
Obi Wan Kenobi: These are your final steps, Rey. Rise and take them.
Anakin Skywalker: Rey.
Ahsoka Tano: Rey.
Kannan Jarus: Rey.
Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did.
Luminara Unduli: In the light. Find the light, Rey.
Mace Windu: You’re not alone, Rey.
Yoda: Alone, never have you been.
Qui-Gon Jinn: Every Jedi who ever lived, lives in you.
Anakin Skywalker: The Force surrounds you, Rey.
Aayla Secura: Let it guide you.
Ahsoka Tano: As it guided us.
Mace Windu: Feel the Force flowing through you, Rey.
Anakin Skywalker: Let it lift you.
Adi Gallia: Rise, Rey.
Qui-Gon Jinn: We stand behind you, Rey.
Obi Wan Kenobi: Rey.
Yoda: Rise in the Force.
Kannan Jarus: In the heart of a Jedi lies their strength.
Obi Wan Kenobi: Rise.
Qui-Gon Jinn: Rise.
Luke Skywalker: Rey, the Force will be with you. Always.
[Rey finally rises, stands before Palpatine and lights her saber] |
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Whill wrote: | | Quote: | Rey: Be with me. Be with me. Be with me.
[Rey hears the voices of past Jedi]
Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did.
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If bringing the balance is so common, would anybody bother writing prophecies about it?
| Quote: | | You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force? But which one, the one from Monday or Wednesday? |
PS. Was it really in the movie?
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MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Quote: | Rey: Be with me. Be with me. Be with me.
[Rey hears the voices of past Jedi]
Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did.
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If bringing the balance is so common, would anybody bother writing prophecies about it?
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Perhaps it isn't common. After all, Rey is 3 generations after Anakin, and if what is necessary to "bring balance to the force" is defeat the Sith lords, Anakin did it in 4 ABY, and Rey did it again 30 years later.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Darklighter79 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Quote: | Rey: Be with me. Be with me. Be with me.
[Rey hears the voices of past Jedi]
Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did.
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If bringing the balance is so common, would anybody bother writing prophecies about it?
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Perhaps it isn't common. After all, Rey is 3 generations after Anakin, and if what is necessary to "bring balance to the force" is defeat the Sith lords, Anakin did it in 4 ABY, and Rey did it again 30 years later. |
Well, in a galaxy where the Jedi and Sith have waged war for thousands of years, having to "destroy the Sith" again only 31 years later is too common. Before that the Sith went over a thousand years in between supposed Sith extinctions! But that is really beside the point here.
If Anakin accomplished something at the climax of a six-film saga, and then three films later they undo it just so it to needs to be done again by the latest protagonist, Anakin's original accomplishment is being undermined. It doesn't matter how many years apart they are in-universe or in real life. The last two released Star Wars movies have featured resurrected Sith Lords who had been killed in a prior movie. Is Star Wars Friday the 13th now? Is Palpatine really Jason Voorhees?
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| This is why I basically reject the last film. It actually made the OT pointless. Wtf? I can't imagine the arrogance it took to create this film. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Whill wrote: |
Well, in a galaxy where the Jedi and Sith have waged war for thousands of years, having to "destroy the Sith" again only 31 years later is too common. *snip*
Is Star Wars Friday the 13th now? Is Palpatine really Jason Voorhees? |
I love the Legend of Zelda, so I can't talk. You don't know how many times I've put down Ganon.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:53 pm Post subject: #BringBenSoloBack |
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So while I was on Twitter to get TCW release date announcement/trailer to share, I noticed replies with the hashtag #BringBenSoloBack. It's a huge trend right now. I have a hard time believing that is the walk-away issue people have this film? That Ben Solo died?! They are organizing a letter writing campaign to Lucasfilm to demand that he be brought back to physical life in post-TRoS live action stories. WTF. When I think that this what Star Wars fandom has become, I can feel myself growing into a grumpy old man by the second.
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Grimace
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Whill wrote: | | The last two released Star Wars movies have featured resurrected Sith Lords who had been killed in a prior movie. Is Star Wars Friday the 13th now? Is Palpatine really Jason Voorhees? |
You have to realize that it was Lucas' decision to bring back Darth Maul, as stupid of an idea as that way. How can a person get sliced in half and fall down a pit manage to survive? Well, Lucas caved to the fans.
And the concept of bringing back Palpatine is nothing new. Remember Dark Empire?
That's right.... The Rise of Skywalker has quite a nod to the Dark Empire series of comics. Instead of world devastators, we got an armada of suped-up Star Destroyers that could ravage planets individually. So we went from ships that sucked things up and spit out new machines of war at an astounding rate, we had Star Destroyers with big cannons on them. Oh yeah, and we had a resurrected Emperor. Hmmm....
And the online community for Star Wars has largely lost it's mind. Most can't have fun with Star Wars anymore. I am not one of them. I can enjoy the new movies for the good parts, and cringe at the not-so-good parts, but I don't hate the movies simply because of Disney. Do you know there is a cluster of online Star Wars fans that are complaining that JJ Abrams essentially ret-conned all of the stuff that was brought up in The Last Jedi? That's right, the same movie so many people hated for what they did, they are now demanding that JJ Abrams shouldn't have ret-conned what it established. Talk about lunacy in Star Wars fans!
I didn't like everything about this last installment of the Skywalker saga, but I did enjoy much of the movie. I didn't have a problem with the Emperor returning. I didn't have a problem with Star Destroyers that could destroy planets. I didn't have a problem with battling atop of Star Destroyers that were "rising out of the atmosphere" of a gigantic planet. I didn't have a problem with the Rey/Ben dyad (or whatever they are calling it) and the swapping of lightsabers through the force. I thought it was actually quite clever and cool.
I DID have a problem with the hyperspace "skipping", and kind of rolled my eyes at that. It was neat imagery, but lousy writing and conceptual implementation. I didn't really care for the computer augmented Luke/Leia flashback. I didn't really care for making Rey to be Palpatine's grand-daughter. But what I do instead of griping about it or blaming Disney for doing something bad, I choose to go back to the concept of Rey being a "nobody" who just happened to be quite powerful in the Force. Though I will admit that making her a Palpatine explains an awful lot of how she was able to jump to accomplishing things so rapidly in the previous two movies. Strong, she is, in the Force, and the Force is her ally. |
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 am Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Grimace wrote: |
And the concept of bringing back Palpatine is nothing new. Remember Dark Empire?
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That was in pre-prequel era, before the introduction of "bringing balance to the Force"
but it's a hard job:
| Quote: | | Kathleen Kennedy on Difficulty of Making Star Wars Sequel Films: “There’s No Source Material. We Don’t Have Comic Books.” |
apparently she had forgotten about the movies too.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Grimace wrote: | And the online community for Star Wars has largely lost it's mind. Most can't have fun with Star Wars anymore. I am not one of them. I can enjoy the new movies for the good parts, and cringe at the not-so-good parts, but I don't hate the movies simply because of Disney. Do you know there is a cluster of online Star Wars fans that are complaining that JJ Abrams essentially ret-conned all of the stuff that was brought up in The Last Jedi? That's right, the same movie so many people hated for what they did, they are now demanding that JJ Abrams shouldn't have ret-conned what it established. Talk about lunacy in Star Wars fans!
I didn't like everything about this last installment of the Skywalker saga, but I did enjoy much of the movie. I didn't have a problem with the Emperor returning. I didn't have a problem with Star Destroyers that could destroy planets. I didn't have a problem with battling atop of Star Destroyers that were "rising out of the atmosphere" of a gigantic planet. I didn't have a problem with the Rey/Ben dyad (or whatever they are calling it) and the swapping of lightsabers through the force. I thought it was actually quite clever and cool.
I DID have a problem with the hyperspace "skipping", and kind of rolled my eyes at that. It was neat imagery, but lousy writing and conceptual implementation. I didn't really care for the computer augmented Luke/Leia flashback. I didn't really care for making Rey to be Palpatine's grand-daughter. But what I do instead of griping about it or blaming Disney for doing something bad, I choose to go back to the concept of Rey being a "nobody" who just happened to be quite powerful in the Force. Though I will admit that making her a Palpatine explains an awful lot of how she was able to jump to accomplishing things so rapidly in the previous two movies. Strong, she is, in the Force, and the Force is her ally. |
Thanks, Grimace. This week I was wondering what you thought about the film. You mentioned a lot of common criticisms I've seen around the internet, but not all of those have even come up here. It nice to see so much positivity towards modern Star Wars films. From 2015-2019, that was one of my major roles here, but I haven't been able to do that much for TRoS. I have stated the general recommendation to try look at this Disney trilogy as a parallel universe to the other film.
Keep in mind that different people have varying numbers of levels of appreciation, and the levels have different priorities for different fans. I have watched TRoS and enjoyed aspects of it as an individual film, but it is not just a single Star Wars film. I also view it through the lens of how it completes the "sequel trilogy", and also how it completes the so-called "Skywalker Saga".
Some fans conflate everything and hold it to all standards simultaneously, and only speak to the net result of that (IMO the more aspects you add, the worse it gets as a whole). For some fans, how it relates to other films (or the EU, or the WEG game) is even more important to how it is as an individual film. A lot of these people will have a hard time appreciating the movie for its own merits. Some people haven't liked a Star Wars movie since 1983 and they will only spread negativity about all subsequent films, even contradictory criticisms. For the most part these people aren't lunatics. They are trolls and I have found that there are no friendly discussions or reasoning with them.
I said I was done seeing TRoS at three viewings, but my son wants to see it again so we'll do a fourth time. I am working on a mega 'thoughts and reactions' type of post for TRoS. I will include a list of about 30 aspects of the film that I enjoyed with some details about them. I will also try to analyze the film through three lenses: as an individual film, as the third episode of the trilogy, and the final episode of the trilogy of trilogies. And then give some commentary/conclusions. I hope to have it ready by the end of the weekend.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:27 am Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The last two released Star Wars movies have featured resurrected Sith Lords who had been killed in a prior movie. Is Star Wars Friday the 13th now? Is Palpatine really Jason Voorhees? |
You have to realize that it was Lucas' decision to bring back Darth Maul, as stupid of an idea as that way. How can a person get sliced in half and fall down a pit manage to survive? Well, Lucas caved to the fans. |
I do realize it was Lucas' decision to not bring Maul back to life for Episodes II and III, and that it was his decision to bring Maul back for TCW.
After TPM Lucas was asked why he had Maul cut in half, Lucas said that if he hadn't, fans would be clamoring to bring him back for the next episode when he knew that Maul would not serve the plot of II. And he wouldn't have. He needed a charismatic former Jedi to lead the Separatist (enter Christopher Lee's Dooku). As it ends up, Maul, Dooku, and Grievous all represent aspects of cyborg Vader.
In 2005 Lucas said he was definitely done with films. He had given us the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. From the onset of TCW in 2008 (even before Maul's return), Lucas started meddling with his own film premises (which included his prior guidances of the PT-era EU). Why? Because the films were done and Lucas no longer had to manage fan expectations of future films like he had to from 1999-2005. After Maul's brother was a popular character, a lot of TCW fans ate up Maul's return so much that they didn't even care about the fact that he had been cut in half. They accepted Maul's 'burning hatred for Kenobi' as an explanation for his survival.
But it was Disney's decision to approve Larry Kasdan's son's idea to bring stupid cartoon continuity into a live action film. Lucas did have two opportunities to bring Maul back to life in live action films, but Lucas wisely chose not to. What's good enough for a cartoon may not be good enough for a live action film.
| Grimace wrote: | And the concept of bringing back Palpatine is nothing new. Remember Dark Empire?
That's right.... The Rise of Skywalker has quite a nod to the Dark Empire series of comics. Instead of world devastators, we got an armada of suped-up Star Destroyers that could ravage planets individually. So we went from ships that sucked things up and spit out new machines of war at an astounding rate, we had Star Destroyers with big cannons on them. Oh yeah, and we had a resurrected Emperor. Hmmm.... |
I remember Dark Empire. I sold my original issues but I still have a trade paperback of the series. I like a few things in it. I recently read a short article that talked about how bits of TRoS were inspired by Dark Empire. I truly do think that Abrams, the other film writer, or both of them actually read Dark Empire before or during the writing the story for TRoS.
When Lucas famously stated that there was a Star Wars multiverse (his universe, the EU, and each fan's universe), he made some emphatic statements about his universe that contradicted the EU. He said that in his personal SWU, Palpatine never came back to life after RotJ. I read a recent interview with Ian McDiarmid and he said that when he was filming RotJ, he asked Lucas if the Emperor was really dead. He says Lucas told him yes, definitely. When he was filming RotS he asked Lucas again if there were any plans to bring him back, and he says Lucas said no, this is it for him. McDiarmid saying this recently, in light of the fact that he returned in TRoS, doesn't do anything to support his return so I believe him.
It was Disney's decision to bring Palpatine back to life in live action. What's good enough for a 1991-92 comic book may not be good enough for a live action film. Lucas made business decisions for the EU that do not necessarily reflect his personal views of Star Wars, especially for the EU before the PT.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| Grimace wrote: |
I didn't like everything about this last installment of the Skywalker saga, but I did enjoy much of the movie. I didn't have a problem with the Emperor returning. I didn't have a problem with Star Destroyers that could destroy planets. I didn't have a problem with battling atop of Star Destroyers that were "rising out of the atmosphere" of a gigantic planet. I didn't have a problem with the Rey/Ben dyad (or whatever they are calling it) and the swapping of lightsabers through the force. I thought it was actually quite clever and cool.
I DID have a problem with the hyperspace "skipping", and kind of rolled my eyes at that.
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I had the SAME reaction. I don't enjoy the ST as much as the OT, but I enjoyed the films for what they were. Liked the parts I liked, cringed that the parts that made me cringe, and accepted it for the entertainment that it was.
If someone asks me how hyperspace atmospheric skipping works in my game, I'm going to have to shrug.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: [Rey hears the voices of past Jedi] |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Grimace wrote: |
I didn't like everything about this last installment of the Skywalker saga, but I did enjoy much of the movie. I didn't have a problem with the Emperor returning. I didn't have a problem with Star Destroyers that could destroy planets. I didn't have a problem with battling atop of Star Destroyers that were "rising out of the atmosphere" of a gigantic planet. I didn't have a problem with the Rey/Ben dyad (or whatever they are calling it) and the swapping of lightsabers through the force. I thought it was actually quite clever and cool.
I DID have a problem with the hyperspace "skipping", and kind of rolled my eyes at that.
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I had the SAME reaction. I don't enjoy the ST as much as the OT, but I enjoyed the films for what they were. Liked the parts I liked, cringed that the parts that made me cringe, and accepted it for the entertainment that it was.
If someone asks me how hyperspace atmospheric skipping works in my game, I'm going to have to shrug. |
Thirded.
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