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Splitting Movement
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Stan Shinn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:13 pm    Post subject: Splitting Movement Reply with quote

In D&D 5e, and in Savage Worlds (which is heavily inspired by Star Wars 2e), you can split your movement (e.g. move 2 squares, take a shot, then move the rest of your movement which might take you into 100% cover when you're done).

Are there versions of D6 games that allow you to split your movement (outside of doing a 'run' action)?

Anyone add any house-rules to this effect?
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experimented with each move being an action. So a person who move 20 meters and shoot his blaster, would shoot his blaster at -2D. When he wants to move and how far is only limited by his Move, typically 10, and the order in which he performs his actions is up to him. For example he Moves, Shoots, Moves again (into cover). Or he could Move, Move (into cover), Shoot.

Not sure it answers your question, but its another method.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, wouldn’t any Move be a full-round action, with the only variable being covered...
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a lot of playtesting for it yet, but I've just started using a new method for handling movement.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Technically, wouldn’t any Move be a full-round action, with the only variable being covered...

It true that you can do only one move per round, but the premise of RAW is that all actions including move actions happen exactly when they are rolled. But that can get weird. Per RAW, a move doesn't take the whole round unless that is all you do that round. The full distance to the move happens where it lands in the round.

Here's an example that really happened in my game. There is a room with two open doorways, one on each end. A PC walks into the room on one side because he needs to get to the where the other side goes. At the same time that the PC walked in, an enemy group of NPCs comes into the room from the opposite side he needs to go through. The group of NPCs wins initiative and they declare multiple actions, with the first to each take a shot at the PC. The PC chooses to dodge, and all the NPCs miss. Then for the PC's first declared action (MAPped due to the reaction), he wants to moves towards them, go through the group, and out the door the NPCs just came in. It isn't too far for the speed the PC is moving and he makes the move roll, going right in between the NPCs and out of the room before the NPCs can do anything. That's silly to me, that the total distance from a move happens within the split second of a single action.

So my idea was to spread each move out over the course of the entire round. That means that each full move action has to be declared with the first action and the number of total actions at the players first turn that round. If the moving character does other things during the move, like shoot at enemies, he can. Characters are MAPed the same, but actions can happen during the move. If a characters was to run and shoot a couple times during the run, then at his turn he declares three actions with the run as one of them, then rolls the move roll and also rolls for his first shot. Then I look at the total distance he wants to run and fractions out the increments of the distance as to about where each action will occur along the path of the move. Let's say after the running character's first shot, the enemy shoots and hits the running character, who is wounded. The running character of course goes down. He didn't complete his move but he did get part way. If the move roll is failed, I'll determine how far into the move the character gets before the wipe out.

The same thing applies for vehicle movement. A move can also be declared later in the round for a character's second or third action, etc., but the distance for each speed is reduced proportionally to the number of actions left (so it becomes a partial move with the distance calculated based on if it had been declared and started with the first action).

Does anyone see any problems with this method? Does anyone have any suggested tweaks?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea that does sound Katty whampus.. HE should have at least, had them be able to attack him as he passed through their ranks.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Here's an example that really happened in my game. There is a room with two open doorways, one on each end. A PC walks into the room on one side because he needs to get to the where the other side goes. At the same time that the PC walked in, an enemy group of NPCs comes into the room from the opposite side he needs to go through. The group of NPCs wins initiative and they declare multiple actions, with the first to each take a shot at the PC. The PC chooses to dodge, and all the NPCs miss. Then for the PC's first declared action (MAPped due to the reaction), he wants to moves towards them, go through the group, and out the door the NPCs just came in. It isn't too far for the speed the PC is moving and he makes the move roll, going right in between the NPCs and out of the room before the NPCs can do anything. That's silly to me, that the total distance from a move happens within the split second of a single action.

So my idea was to spread each move out over the course of the entire round. That means that each full move action has to be declared with the first action and the number of total actions at the players first turn that round. If the moving character does other things during the move, like shoot at enemies, he can. Characters are MAPed the same, but actions can happen during the move. If a characters was to run and shoot a couple times during the run, then at his turn he declares three actions with the run as one of them, then rolls the move roll and also rolls for his first shot. Then I look at the total distance he wants to run and fractions out the increments of the distance as to about where each action will occur along the path of the move. Let's say after the running character's first shot, the enemy shoots and hits the running character, who is wounded. The running character of course goes down. He didn't complete his move but he did get part way. If the move roll is failed, I'll determine how far into the move the character gets before the wipe out.

The same thing applies for vehicle movement. A move can also be declared later in the round for a character's second or third action, etc., but the distance for each speed is reduced proportionally to the number of actions left (so it becomes a partial move with the distance calculated based on if it had been declared and started with the first action).

Does anyone see any problems with this method? Does anyone have any suggested tweaks?


First of all, once the villains get to the room the terrain difficulty should have go up to upper moderate / difficult - as the won't be standing still allowing him to pass with ease and would certainly get into his way. Just a reminder, moving foes into the way of a hero to block him would be for sure just a free action.

Second, a character running past the opponents - one difficulty up (high speed very likely). So if his rolled was failed, you can come up with proper description.

Third, you are right - the movement can be interpreted as a continuous action for the whole round with other acctions occuring during its phase (at the beginging, in the midde, near the end ect). But not always. Sometimes you have to get to somewhere first to do something later. But it always takes more time than just pulling a trigger. I guess common sense should be the judge here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
First of all, once the villains get to the room the terrain difficulty should have go up to upper moderate / difficult - as the won't be standing still allowing him to pass with ease and would certainly get into his way. Just a reminder, moving foes into the way of a hero to block him would be for sure just a free action.

The NPCs weren't standing in the exit way blocking it. They had come into the room a little bit. Under RAW, how they are positioned doesn't matter because you can choose any path. The PCA can draw his intended path on a diagram and run around them if there wasn't space between them. As long as the move speed chosen would cover the distance needed to go (a longer distance if not going in a straight long), and the character makes the move difficulty, then the action succeeds. Yes, moving a short distance can be a free action, but under RAW you can still only do that free action when it is your turn. The only actions that you can do when it is not your turn is reactions (and I have always reasoned that a free cautious move can happen with a dodge). No one was shooting or attacking the NPCs, so they had nothing to react to. Per RAW, they couldn't do anything. The NPCs had initiative but they (and I) did not expect the PC to go out the way they came in, so they did not block the exit. The player took advantage of a loophole in the rules.

Darklighter79 wrote:
Second, a character running past the opponents - one difficulty up (high speed very likely). So if his rolled was failed, you can come up with proper description.

Ye, a move failure would have been bad for the PC. I would have ruled that the PC wiped out in front of them or tripped into their arms. But he made the roll for the move action which did not touch the NPCs, and the distance covered got him out the door they had just come in.

So how I reinterpreted it to make more sense was that the NPCs were surprised that he started running towards them, and that the actions were more simultaneous so their shots had really happened while he was running towards them and they missed. Same outcome of the RAW game mechanics, but the events makes more sense in my minds eye.

Darklighter79 wrote:
Third, you are right - the movement can be interpreted as a continuous action for the whole round with other acctions occuring during its phase (at the beginging, in the midde, near the end ect). But not always. Sometimes you have to get to somewhere first to do something later. But it always takes more time than just pulling a trigger. I guess common sense should be the judge here.

This is one of the things made me think about house ruling RAW by applying common sense and stretching the move out over the whole round. It makes it more natural. RAW is just silly that an entire distance of a move action is covered in between other actions of the round.

And yes, some actions have to be at the end of a move. I had one in an adventure last year, where a PC had to climb up a service ladder to get to a control panel to activate a conveyor in a droid factory. To have time for the action at the end of the move, I made that take off distance that could be covered by the same move if it had been done over the whole round. The shorter distance of the move action was still proportionally just enough to cover the distance needed to get to the panel and then for another action that round to activate the conveyor. So starting a move late and ending a move early takes off total distance that can be covered, but the proportional move is still based on stretching the move out over the whole round.

In my revised rule of the example situation, the PC would have started his move action when he declared that, but not finished it before it was time for the NPCs' second actions of the round, meaning they could take another shot (at closer range) or move to block the exit, etc.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It certainly does seem like a loophole.. Perhaps then we should move this to the HR section, to fix it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Splitting Movement Reply with quote

Stan Shinn wrote:
Are there versions of D6 games that allow you to split your movement (outside of doing a 'run' action)?

I'm not sure.

Stan Shinn wrote:
Anyone add any house-rules to this effect?
garhkal wrote:
It certainly does seem like a loophole.. Perhaps then we should move this to the HR section, to fix it.

Sorry I missed that it wasn't posted in House Rules. Thanks. It is now in House Rules.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things i liked some other systems had, was if you moved close to an enemy, (trying to move by them) it triggered an attack of opportunity from them (melee or brawl).. If they hit, your move got stopped..
Perhaps we could add something like that in here..
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

The NPCs weren't standing in the exit way blocking it. They had come into the room a little bit. Under RAW, how they are positioned doesn't matter because you can choose any path. The PCA can draw his intended path on a diagram and run around them if there wasn't space between them. As long as the move speed chosen would cover the distance needed to go (a longer distance if not going in a straight long), and the character makes the move difficulty, then the action succeeds. Yes, moving a short distance can be a free action, but under RAW you can still only do that free action when it is your turn. The only actions that you can do when it is not your turn is reactions (and I have always reasoned that a free cautious move can happen with a dodge). No one was shooting or attacking the NPCs, so they had nothing to react to. Per RAW, they couldn't do anything. The NPCs had initiative but they (and I) did not expect the PC to go out the way they came in, so they did not block the exit. The player took advantage of a loophole in the rules.


That's why I suggested rushing past the enemies, which would increase overall terrain difficulty. Failure could mean being tripped by an enemy.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two ideas.

If moving char is trying to pass within reach of opponent that opponent would be able to make a reaction attack subject to MAP see dodge.

And/or

If moving within reach of opponent increase the terrain difficulty based on number of opponents being passed?

Neither of these would count for approaching and opponent to engage them in melee.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Splitting Movement Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
One of the things i liked some other systems had, was if you moved close to an enemy, (trying to move by them) it triggered an attack of opportunity from them (melee or brawl).. If they hit, your move got stopped..
Perhaps we could add something like that in here..

IMO D6 doesn't need attacks of opportunity. The problem with RAW was that move actions occur completely in between other actions. My house rule is maintaining that everyone takes their actions when they should according to initiative, except that move actions are stretched out to occur during other actions. In the scenario I gave, applying my mod means that the NPCs had other declared actions left in the round they could take before the PC would run past them. I think stretching moves out is good enough. I don't see that characters doing certain things in certain situations gives other characters additional actions, especially additional attacks. The beauty of this game is that you don't have to declare all your actions up front. You declare how many actions, and then as stuff happens in the round you can change what you were going to do for your subsequent actions.

But I admit that I have a distaste for a lot of d20 mechanics. D&D is crunchy. When I was first learning 3e, I chose to be a straight classic fighter. That class is boring for me, but I thought it would be the easiest to play with the least amount of rules, right? We played with a grid map and minis. I remember that I moved my character by monster in a certain way and my DM said, that provoked an attack of opportunity and he quickly explained it to me. I said, well, I don't move there then. He said, too late you already did. I said, well wouldn't my character being a fighter know not to do that? He said no characters know game rules and rolled the monster's to hit and damage. My character lost a lot of hit points.

I've addressed the problem I identified a different way, but if you insist on adding attacks of opportunity, it should be further MAPped like a reaction for that roll and all subsequent rolls that round.

Stan Shinn wrote:
In D&D 5e, and in Savage Worlds (which is heavily inspired by Star Wars 2e), you can split your movement (e.g. move 2 squares, take a shot, then move the rest of your movement which might take you into 100% cover when you're done).

I didn't directly answer this, but yes, with my method you could split the move up since you can do other actions during the move, as applicable.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I allow ONE complete movement to be split up in initative phases.

It dpends on what the player wants to do and how many actions he takes, I do not give MAP on all multiple actions.

if a player choose to shoot, move shoot move and shoot, he can expect to be shot at and may have less defense when moving, this will be close to attack of opportunity.

however his shooting and his moving is not given a MAP penalty, you can quite easily move (walk) while both shooting and even aiming a gun.

so I basically devide initiative in smaller pases allowing the players to do more than one action pr turn.

in tun I can empty an assault rifle magazine and reload while walking towards the target and giving commads to my squad all this without much if any penalty any of the actions, I would stutter and have a penalty to speak, or stumbel with a walk penalty, being a trained soldier I am trained to keep "aim" while moving, it is the most basic form of infantly combat.

so to me the splitting of movement is what makes sense.

Can a character go from prone to sitting and shoot acctuately without needing a map, yes, but if he then needs to put a hand down to support him self ingetting up, this will make him a less effective shot, and thus that will incure a map to his shooting.

same is a guy standing and aiming, he then spots the target and keeps it in sight and begins to move forward tactically, again nothing to give hima MAP , but once he begins to run he will have more work to keep aim and thus incur MAP.

So if he shoots and them oves he can be an easier target, being the easier target in this situation is very close to the effect of attack of opportunity from d20
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I remember that I moved my character by monster in a certain way and my DM said, that provoked an attack of opportunity and he quickly explained it to me. I said, well, I don't move there then. He said, too late you already did. I said, well wouldn't my character being a fighter know not to do that? He said no characters know game rules and rolled the monster's to hit and damage. My character lost a lot of hit points.


Sounds like your DM was a jerk. I'd have explained the situation, as my DM stepson does, and allowed a mulligan. Then again, I play in a family 5e campaign so YMMV. Incidentally, I play a fighter, too.

As far as Star Wars movement, I prefer 1e's everything-happens-at-once and whoever "wins" gets to act first. Of course, my group is small, and I can see this process being difficult/time-consuming with groups greater than four.
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