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Lightsaber Scale?
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Lightsaber Scale? Reply with quote

I know this has been discussed many times before and to be honest I didn't pay attention. But now I am wondering about scale and lightsabers. We see numerous times throughout the movies and the novels of the character scale lightsaber cutting through blast doors, walls and hulls of capital ships, speeder scale vehicles, and more recently in RoSk we see starfighter scale.

This also brings up examples of character scale blasters damaging speeder, walker and starfighter scale vehicles.

So, how do you guys handle this? I don't think its just, "lightsabers have no scale" and more than just spending a Force Point or spectacular success on a skill roll.

Perhaps a Game Note stating something like "lightsabers ignore operate as though speeder scale but receives no damage modifier."
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The addition of control dice to the lightsabre damage probably accounts for it.

The TIE Fighter has a +6D due to its starfighter scale.

If Rey has a Control 6D or something, with way more than that being entirely in keeping with the skill levels she shows in the films, that'd even out, with the lightsabre's base damage already being pretty high (5D).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scots Dragon wrote:
The addition of control dice to the lightsabre damage probably accounts for it.

The TIE Fighter has a +6D due to its starfighter scale.

If Rey has a Control 6D or something, with way more than that being entirely in keeping with the skill levels she shows in the films, that'd even out, with the lightsabre's base damage already being pretty high (5D).


Add to that, each additional round a jedi leaves the blade there, they could be gaining addtional damage die..
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So lets see then, TIE fighter, special Krylo Ren version, probably has more than 2D and shields. But he is arrogant so not using the shields. So lets say the Hull is 3D+1.

3D+1 + 6D scale = 9D+1 average 32

She is able to cut through it with little problem, so enough damage to crash the ship. So we are talking about Severely Damaged and a result of Structural Damage, Heavily Damaged with a result of Ship loses -2 from its maneuverability causing Krylo to lose control of the ship and crash (pretty unlikely), or Controls Ionized the cannot he controlled for a round and crashes (this actually could work).

In each of these examples average damage required is:

1. 14 + 32 = 46 requiring 5D + 8D control = 46
2. 11 + 32 = 43 requiring 5D + 7D+1 control = 43
3. 3 + 32 = 35 requiring 5D + 5D control = 35

So yeah, I guess that makes sense. Especially as Rey probably has Force skills in the 12-14D range. Maybe even lower.

RISE OF SKYWALKER SPOILER .... LOOK AWAY ... LOOK AWAY


.....
....
...
..
.

Palpy kinda tossed her and Krylo around like rag dolls and she required the help of all the Force ghosts before her to help her win.

Let's see who all was in there?


Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Ahsoka tano
Kanan Jarrus
Luminara Unduli
Qui-Gon Jinn
Aayla Secura
Mace Windu
Adi Gallia
Yoda
Luke Skywalker

Obi-Wan Kenonbi: "These are your final steps, Rey. Rise, and take them."
Anakin Skywalker: "Rey."
Ahsoka Tano: "Rey."
Kanan Jarrus: "Rey."
Anakin: "Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did."
Luminara Unduli: "The light. Find the light, Rey."
Qui-Gon Jinn: "Every Jedi who ever lived, lives in you."
Anakin: "The Force surrounds you, Rey."
Aayla Secura: "Let it guide you."
Mace Windu: "Feel the Force flowing through you, Rey."
Anakin: "Let it lift you."
Adi Galia: "Rise, Rey."
Qui-Gon: "We stand behind you, Rey."
Obi-Wan: "Rey."
Yoda: "Rise in the Force, Rey."
Kanan: "In the heart of a Jedi lies their strength."
Obi-Wan: "Rise."
Qui-Gon: "Rise."
Luke Skywalker: "Rey, the Force will be with you. Always."

Which brings up another question. If the ability to transition to a Force ghost was taught to Qui-Gon by the Wills then taught Obi-Wan and Yoda, how the hell did these other Jedi learn how to do it? Or are they just able to speak through the Force as its a key point in the development of the Force in the universe? If so, why them specifically? GAH, I hate this movie so much.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
GAH, I hate this movie so much.


Sadly, it occurs to me that it would have greatly benefited from having Carrie Fisher available to be a script doctor.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Palpy kinda tossed her and Krylo around like rag dolls and she required the help of all the Force ghosts before her to help her win.

Let's see who all was in there?

Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Ahsoka tano
Kanan Jarrus
Luminara Unduli
Qui-Gon Jinn
Aayla Secura
Mace Windu
Adi Gallia
Yoda
Luke Skywalker

Obi-Wan Kenonbi: "These are your final steps, Rey. Rise, and take them."
Anakin Skywalker: "Rey."
Ahsoka Tano: "Rey."
Kanan Jarrus: "Rey."
Anakin: "Bring back the balance, Rey, as I did."
Luminara Unduli: "The light. Find the light, Rey."
Qui-Gon Jinn: "Every Jedi who ever lived, lives in you."
Anakin: "The Force surrounds you, Rey."
Aayla Secura: "Let it guide you."
Mace Windu: "Feel the Force flowing through you, Rey."
Anakin: "Let it lift you."
Adi Galia: "Rise, Rey."
Qui-Gon: "We stand behind you, Rey."
Obi-Wan: "Rey."
Yoda: "Rise in the Force, Rey."
Kanan: "In the heart of a Jedi lies their strength."
Obi-Wan: "Rise."
Qui-Gon: "Rise."
Luke Skywalker: "Rey, the Force will be with you. Always."

Which brings up another question. If the ability to transition to a Force ghost was taught to Qui-Gon by the Wills then taught Obi-Wan and Yoda, how the hell did these other Jedi learn how to do it? Or are they just able to speak through the Force as its a key point in the development of the Force in the universe? If so, why them specifically? GAH, I hate this movie so much.

In ANH, Vader, who had been a Jedi Knight before he turned to evil, didn't know about Force Ghosts. The prequels make it explicitly clear that when everyone including Jedi die, their personal life forces rejoin The Force and their personal identities are completely lost. Qui-Gon hadn't even learned a full version of the Force ghost power because it took Qui-Gon years just to break through to speaking to Yoda, and when Obi-Wan first learned of Qui-Gon's survival, Yoda said he had to teach Obi-Wan how to commune with Qui-Gon. So Qui-Gon definitely hadn't taught it to anyone else at that point. Qui-Gon's ghost taught the power to Yoda and Obi-Wan. There may be just a short time after death before their identity dissolves, but that's it. According to lore, when Anakin died, Yoda's and Obi-Wan's ghosts quickly taught his spirit how to become a ghost before he dissolved. So that is three Jedi who had learned that power as of the end of RotJ. In the EU, it was definite that Dark Siders couldn't achieve becoming a ghost because it required positive emotions.

In the Disney Trio, it would seem that the Force ghosts must have taught it to Luke and he had passed it on to Leia, and Ben. But then again, Abrams seems to feel that all Jedi have that power. The "I am all the Jedi" voices part of TRoS featured four other prequel Jedi who definitely shouldn't have known that power when they died. Although Yoda mentally communicated with Kanan across the stars, there is no indication in Rebels that Kanan had ever learned the Force ghost power before he died. There is also no indication that Ahsoka Tano learned the power but we know she did survive RotJ so she is a maybe.

Speaking of Ahsoka, when Dave Filoni was asked if her voice speaking to Rey meant that she is dead by that point in time, he said no, he didn't think think that Abrams meant that so not necessarily. So in Disney Wars, not only do you not have to know the power to become a Force ghost, but a Jedi doesn't even have to die to become a Force ghost! How can they even say this is even in the same universe as the Lucas SW films? With all these Jedi being Force ghosts, they have let the past die.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

In ANH, Vader, who had been a Jedi Knight before he turned to evil, didn't know about Force Ghosts. The prequels make it explicitly clear that when everyone including Jedi die, their personal life forces rejoin The Force and their personal identities are completely lost. Qui-Gon hadn't even learned a full version of the Force ghost power because it took Qui-Gon years just to break through to speaking to Yoda, and when Obi-Wan first learned of Qui-Gon's survival, Yoda said he had to teach Obi-Wan how to commune with Qui-Gon. So Qui-Gon definitely hadn't taught it to anyone else at that point. Qui-Gon's ghost taught the power to Yoda and Obi-Wan. There may be just a short time after death before their identity dissolves, but that's it. According to lore, when Anakin died, Yoda's and Obi-Wan's ghosts quickly taught his spirit how to become a ghost before he dissolved. So that is three Jedi who had learned that power as of the end of RotJ. In the EU, it was definite that Dark Siders couldn't achieve becoming a ghost because it required positive emotions.

In the Disney Trio, it would seem that the Force ghosts must have taught it to Luke and he had passed it on to Leia, and Ben. But then again, Abrams seems to feel that all Jedi have that power. The "I am all the Jedi" voices part of TRoS featured four other prequel Jedi who definitely shouldn't have known that power when they died. Although Yoda mentally communicated with Kanan across the stars, there is no indication in Rebels that Kanan had ever learned the Force ghost power before he died. There is also no indication that Ahsoka Tano learned the power but we know she did survive RotJ so she is a maybe.

Speaking of Ahsoka, when Dave Filoni was asked if her voice speaking to Rey meant that she is dead by that point in time, he said no, he didn't think think that Abrams meant that so not necessarily. So in Disney Wars, not only do you not have to know the power to become a Force ghost, but a Jedi doesn't even have to die to become a Force ghost! How can they even say this is even in the same universe as the Lucas SW films? With all these Jedi being Force ghosts, they have let the past die.


Moreover, in RotS novel it is clearly stated by Qui Gon:

Quote:
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it," Qui-Gon explained. "It comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."

So Dark Empire's idea was decanonized in that very moment along with all dark side spirit concept. Yet, KK and JJ forgot to do the homework. There's no such thing as all the Sith. Evil or Very Mad
More here
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would be Luke's Force and Lightsaber skill during the battle of Endor?

As I have seen in every write up on the character he is well below 10D in any forcce skill and in lightaber.

He still has a moderate diffuclty to even use this 8even Han could use one, and later we see fin and other non force sensitives use lightabers plenty of times)

On the forest moon of endor he seems to instantly react to a "passing" speeder bike and not only give structural damage, it cuts in two pieces in one quick strike.

Now if we were to add speeder scale here and apply this to the lightaber damage, what then?

He would have more difficulties outright cutting the speeder in half, would he not.

So I think that lightsabers should do the same daamage regardless of size

If we look to a star destoyer, we cut our way in through a door/plate. We have seen this in movies.

Would this door/plate have the ship's size or would this simply be a plate of metal regardless?

I am for saying that size has close to zero effect on a lightsaber's ability to cut
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
What would be Luke's Force and Lightsaber skill during the battle of Endor?

As I have seen in every write up on the character he is well below 10D in any forcce skill and in lightaber.

He still has a moderate diffuclty to even use this 8even Han could use one, and later we see fin and other non force sensitives use lightabers plenty of times)

On the forest moon of endor he seems to instantly react to a "passing" speeder bike and not only give structural damage, it cuts in two pieces in one quick strike.

Now if we were to add speeder scale here and apply this to the lightaber damage, what then?

He would have more difficulties outright cutting the speeder in half, would he not.

So I think that lightsabers should do the same daamage regardless of size

If we look to a star destoyer, we cut our way in through a door/plate. We have seen this in movies.

Would this door/plate have the ship's size or would this simply be a plate of metal regardless?

I am for saying that size has close to zero effect on a lightsaber's ability to cut


But if you were standing on the outside of a star destroyer on its hull and hacked at its hull with a lightsaber, should you have a chance to destroy the entire ship?

without any kind of scale modifier...that would be possible.

I think it's something that should be left to a GM's common sense factor on a case-by-case basis.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit late on this, but w/r/t to the original question, my Scale System and the RoE Accuracy Damage Bonus rules cover this nicely. Per that combination of rules, a Starfighter is +6D to resist damage, but the character with the lightsaber will be +6D to hit it. Using the 3/1 variant of the RoE Rules, that works out to a +7 average bonus to the Damage roll just off the Scale Modifier, and that's before you factor in the Control dice.

Something I've thought about doing with lightsabers in the past is along the lines of the D6 Space Strength Damage concept, but using Dex instead. Specifically, the Lightsaber would inflict 1/2 Dexterity + 5D. So, take the character's Dex, convert to pips, divide by 2 (rounding down), convert back to dice, then add the resulting dice value to 5D to get the Lightsaber's damage.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a thought regarding a person vs somethingas massive as even a light freighter.

as we have seen with speeder k\bikes and to some extent fighters which are by their design more vulnerable than mostlarger size ships.

so I was thinking a jedi on the outside of a star destroyer, he deals normal 5D (+ force)damage but to this plate, it would be easy to summize hardness and make the plate speeder ot srafighter scale.

the jedi now "destroys" the integrity of the plate, he cuts through it and is inside the ship facing human scale opponents.

I can see how a jedimay use a lightsaber to destroy speeders and even most fighters, but nothing larger, to me thiswill be only cutting into the craft.

naturally a light friehter may have some system that is covered by a plate, this can be cut through and the ship "disabled" or more.

but again this would to me be the plate vs lightsabe not the whole ship.

I can shoot through a 20mm armor plate with a .50 when it is the side of a tracked vehicle, but the plate magically becomes any stronger if the same 20mm plate was on a ship ten times the size of the vehicle?

Most ships have thicker armor hense why they take less damage from weapons that deal normal damage.

so I would say that a stardestroyer armor would be in the 10D range, vs the 5D +(force) by the jedi, however thiswould not be the entire destryoyer as if it had a hit point system it would have thousands.


so anywhere on the hull the jedi tries to cu through he must succeed vd a STR 10D for the armor. or even 15D or more, what would be the same if this was a slab of armor th same thickness standing upright on a surface?

but I am thinking the relevant armor (STR for ISD armor) where the attack happens, and only there.

now you cut through the side, but you don't destroy the ship no matter how much damage you inflict,
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:


I can shoot through a 20mm armor plate with a .50 when it is the side of a tracked vehicle, but the plate magically becomes any stronger if the same 20mm plate was on a ship ten times the size of the vehicle?

Most ships have thicker armor hense why they take less damage from weapons that deal normal damage.

so I would say that a stardestroyer armor would be in the 10D range, vs the 5D +(force) by the jedi, however thiswould not be the entire destryoyer as if it had a hit point system it would have thousands.



I don't think Scale is really about the strength of the plating.
It's about scale.

If you could build the full-sized Titanic out of balsa wood and you stabbed it with a sword, the sword would penetrate the hull easily. But you wouldn't be able to 'destroy' it with a hit because of a roll on the damage chart.

A human being's skin is skin. If you prick a person with a pin you'll penetrate and cause a minimal amount of damage. The pin is a 'weapon' of a much smaller scale.

If you stab the person with a full-sized sword you might 'destroy' that person.

If you stabbed an ant with the pin you would probably 'destroy' it.

The scale rules are just really wonky when you try to skip more than a level or two.

I'd handle each situation with common sense. Like you said, if you cut into a star destroyer with a lightsaber you will cut a hole in the hull...but not roll on the damage chart that has all kinds of damage effects including 'destroyed'.

Whereas if it were me, A Jedi attacking a speeder would use the scale rules as written. If no damage is done on the attack, I might judge the Lightsaber has cut right through a part of the vehicle, but not hit anything critical that results in any kinds of modifier. 'Cosmetic' damage only.

In the case of Luke attacking the speederbike on Endor; it's possible his hit didn't get a 'destroyed' result. He might have got a damage result that made it lose dice from maneuverability...and the driver then crashed it as a result.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that when you scale things up to a man stabbing the titanic, you have to consider why, is it to destroy it or to get inside and then destroy it after doing the things he needs to iside.

if we where to compare, this would be like stabbing, yes, you KILL th person becuse he is organic, but you not destroy the body, it gets a "hole" from the knife.

So I am all for scale when they are realistic, and for using minor scale for even huge shios if the ourpose is not to destroy.

so he cuts through the speeder size armor plate on the ISD, he only use speeder size.

once he is in direct combat with or has to destroy the destroyer from the outside with his "stick" then yes this is hard and should be, if not impossible, had it been even something toconsider we would see people in suits swarming ships with lightsabers.

so it is to cut in and thus the size of the plate not the entire vessel.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
My point is

...

so he cuts through the speeder size armor plate on the ISD, he only use speeder size.

once he is in direct combat with or has to destroy the destroyer from the outside with his "stick" then yes this is hard and should be, if not impossible, had it been even something toconsider we would see people in suits swarming ships with lightsabers.

so it is to cut in and thus the size of the plate not the entire vessel.


I get what you are saying.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regards to deflecting blaster bolts, my house rule is that you can deflect blaster damage up to the amount of dice your lightsaber has in damage. The Jedi/Sith takes any additional damage.

The average lightsaber has 5D damage. The average blaster pistol does 4D damage. The rule doesn't come up much. Even with a Thunderer (6D+2) the Jedi would only have to soak 1D+2 damage. Frankly, the rule doesn't come up much.

If the player wants to try and reflect a blaster from a speeder or a walker or some other higher scale, (After watching too many episodes of Rebels) I do allow them to add their control dice to their lightsaber's damage to reflect the higher scale damage. You have to have lightsaber combat up to deflect blaster bolts to begin with, so they'll already be adding control to their damage.

I hope I explained that adequately.

Good luck!
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