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Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Brawling:
his is a "to hit" skill, and depended on STR for the effective damage.
Howver it is the only "to hit" skill under STR attribute, with all the other "to hit"
skills under dexterity, with the exception of staship gunnery.

Now I am thinking maybe bbrwling and starship gunnery, being "to hit" skills should be
dexterity based.

vehicle blasters is a dexterty skill, a starship IS a vehicle so why not keep all "to hit" skills under
DEX attribute .

Thoughts?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in favor.

a) it further increases the importance of Dexterity
b) Why would starship weaponry be a dexterity skill? You're using your ship to aim. You're not sitting on a pintile mount aiming your proton torpedos at the Star Destroyer... you're using your targeting computer to point the guidance system at what you want to explode.
c) Brawling is perhaps the only one that makes sense, but brawling also encompasses wrestling, which shouldn't be. I'd also note that switching Brawling to Dex means traditionally tough monsters (rancors, wampas) are less effective, unless you give them a TON of skill dice to make up the difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with Mr Nexx.. As is, Dex is one of the most over important attributes, CAUSE it has so many combat related skills in.. Add all the other combat skills to it, and it just becomes a game of who has the best Dex..

Now on the ship vs vehicle weaponry. As a military guy, i have fired both a pinicle mounted 50 cal (akin to vehicle weaponry) and YES your hand/eye coordination matters.. BUT firing a missile/CWS mount, that is more 'how skilled you are in using the computer, which is Mech.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Why would starship weaponry be a dexterity skill? You're using your ship to aim. You're not sitting on a pintle mount aiming your proton torpedos at the Star Destroyer... you're using your targeting computer to point the guidance system at what you want to explode.

I agree. In fact, the general Vehicle Blasters skill would be better off in Mechanical for that reason, with a separate skill (Blaster Artillery) covering crew-served weapons and pintle-mounts.

Quote:
c) Brawling is perhaps the only one that makes sense, but brawling also encompasses wrestling, which shouldn't be. I'd also note that switching Brawling to Dex means traditionally tough monsters (rancors, wampas) are less effective, unless you give them a TON of skill dice to make up the difference.

I made this switch a while ago; Brawling and wrestling are both combinations of Strength and Dexterity, as in, having the hand-eye coordination needed to land a blow / grapple despite your opponent's attempts to counter it, but needing to have the power behind it to make use of it. I'd need to put some thought into how rancors or banthas would be affected, but when it comes down to it, adding a few dice to their Brawling skill is an easy enough fix.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
As is, Dex is one of the most over important attributes, CAUSE it has so many combat related skills in.. Add all the other combat skills to it, and it just becomes a game of who has the best Dex..

But the question should be, where does the skill best fit? Flyweight boxers aren't worse boxers than super-heavyweights just on account of their lower Strength - if anything, they're faster on the punch, but don't have as much power behind it. Having Brawling in Dex while still using Strength for Damage purposes allows for that degree of granularity in a stat, rather a simple linear progression.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Thoughts?

Yeah I'm another nay on those changes.

Dexterity has the ability to dodge and run without falling down, plus shooting blasters, so Dexterity is arguably the most important attribute as it is. And a lot of skills overlap. Attributes even overlap.

There are elements of Dexterity in Strength. Jumping involves Dexterity. Brawling isn't just about landing a punch. It is about applying Strength effectively to have a chance to do damage. I interpret some missed to-hit rolls to be ineffective punches instead of actual misses.

Strength has the least skills. In the only case where I split one skill into two, climbing and jumping are separate skills in my game. As much as I've moved skills around, I haven't taken anything from Strength. I've also combined brawling parry with brawling à la IAG, so I've taken a Dexterity skill and folded it into a Strength skill. And as finicky as I am about some things, it just does not bother me that the same attribute governs chance to hit and damage for brawling attacks.

There are elements of Dexterity in Mechanical. For weapons, I draw the line at handheld (Dexterity) or not (Mechanical). I include armor weapons and weapons worn on your person with Dexterity. So I have recombined blaster artillery and vehicle blasters into heavy weapons à la 1e, except that I have it on Mechanical instead of Dexterity. Therefore starship gunnery stays on Mechanical too.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
So I have recombined blaster artillery and vehicle blasters into heavy weapons à la 1e, except that I have it on Mechanical instead of Dexterity. Therefore starship gunnery stays on Mechanical too.


I might even say missile weapons should do that..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
So I have recombined blaster artillery and vehicle blasters into heavy weapons à la 1e, except that I have it on Mechanical instead of Dexterity. Therefore starship gunnery stays on Mechanical too.

I might even say missile weapons should do that.

I draw the same line for missile weapons so it normally goes by scale. Character missile weapons are going to be the missile weapons Dex skill, while non-space vehicle missile weapons are going to be my heavy weapons Mec skill.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Game balance aside, I tend to think that brawling belongs in strength for fairly obvious reasons.

Other "to hit" rolls require the use and control of a foreign object, going beyond mere hand-eye coordination.

Brawling is purely a bodily endeavor. Dodge is the only "bodily" skill that I can't make an argument for falling into strength. Even running (if you use it other than for balance... that is, interacting with a trecherous surface), is more strength dependent (either leg strength for speed or stamina for distance).

If we want to get "realistic" its worth considering that strength and dexterity are more tightly linked than typical game mechanics seem to suggest.

That is, all forms of athletic training involve bodily coordination developmemt. The more agile you get, the stronger you get even if only as a side effect of doing agility drills. Also, muscles have to be strong enough to pull off certain maneuvers at necessary speeds (consider wrestlers, football players, gymnasts, sprinters, etc). Even power lifting requires complex coordination and timing of muscle groups in order to exert the most possible force on the weight to be lifted.

Lastly, there is an obvious reason why boxing/wrestling/MMA is divided into weight clases.

Size is literally a determining factor in a fight. I've sparred with dudes that were literally half my size (I was 240 at the time, and the most skilled opponent was 125... he was WAY more skilled than I was... took 1st place in the tourny we were training for inhis weight class) but had absoluty no ability to overpower me. Anytime he got ahold of me, I just took my limb back or shrugged him off, etc. He did have a counter for all of my attacks, so it was a stalemate, but it was litterally impossible for him to submit me because he lacked the strength to ovsrpower me and the mass to control me.

Naturally, my strength was highr than his by virtue of the size difference. But mass also matters: when a punch is properly thrown, all of the body weight comes with it. And with size comes reach. A bigger person can hit a smaller person sooner, so any speed advantage that might exist for a smaller fighter is offset by the delay of having to close distance.

I'd say that whatever dexterity contributes to brawling prowess, its far less tha 50%... prpbably closer to 10%, IMO. YMMV.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
So I have recombined blaster artillery and vehicle blasters into heavy weapons à la 1e, except that I have it on Mechanical instead of Dexterity. Therefore starship gunnery stays on Mechanical too.

I might even say missile weapons should do that.

I draw the same line for missile weapons so it normally goes by scale. Character missile weapons are going to be the missile weapons Dex skill, while non-space vehicle missile weapons are going to be my heavy weapons Mec skill.


I can see heavy weapons (crew served) being mechanical, especially when a physical fire control system interfaces between the gunner and the weapon.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I can see heavy weapons (crew served) being mechanical, especially when a physical fire control system interfaces between the gunner and the weapon.

Yep.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:20 am    Post subject: Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Game balance aside, I tend to think that brawling belongs in strength for fairly obvious reasons.

Other "to hit" rolls require the use and control of a foreign object, going beyond mere hand-eye coordination.

Brawling is purely a bodily endeavor. Dodge is the only "bodily" skill that I can't make an argument for falling into strength. Even running (if you use it other than for balance... that is, interacting with a trecherous surface), is more strength dependent (either leg strength for speed or stamina for distance).

If we want to get "realistic" its worth considering that strength and dexterity are more tightly linked than typical game mechanics seem to suggest.

That is, all forms of athletic training involve bodily coordination developmemt. The more agile you get, the stronger you get even if only as a side effect of doing agility drills. Also, muscles have to be strong enough to pull off certain maneuvers at necessary speeds (consider wrestlers, football players, gymnasts, sprinters, etc). Even power lifting requires complex coordination and timing of muscle groups in order to exert the most possible force on the weight to be lifted.

Lastly, there is an obvious reason why boxing/wrestling/MMA is divided into weight clases.

Size is literally a determining factor in a fight. I've sparred with dudes that were literally half my size (I was 240 at the time, and the most skilled opponent was 125... he was WAY more skilled than I was... took 1st place in the tourny we were training for inhis weight class) but had absoluty no ability to overpower me. Anytime he got ahold of me, I just took my limb back or shrugged him off, etc. He did have a counter for all of my attacks, so it was a stalemate, but it was litterally impossible for him to submit me because he lacked the strength to ovsrpower me and the mass to control me.

Naturally, my strength was highr than his by virtue of the size difference. But mass also matters: when a punch is properly thrown, all of the body weight comes with it. And with size comes reach. A bigger person can hit a smaller person sooner, so any speed advantage that might exist for a smaller fighter is offset by the delay of having to close distance.

I'd say that whatever dexterity contributes to brawling prowess, its far less tha 50%... prpbably closer to 10%, IMO. YMMV.

The case for brawling remaining in Strength was much more eloquently stated here than what I posted. Regarding everything else you said about the connection between Dexterity and Strength, I can't disagree with any of it.

Unless a GM wants to house rule the game to have completely floating skills that are matched to an attribute per each use as determined by the GM (too radical from RAW for me), then at the end of the day a skill has to default to one attribute or another.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
He did have a counter for all of my attacks, so it was a stalemate, but it was literally impossible for him to submit me because he lacked the strength to overpower me and the mass to control me.

But wouldn't that also be the case in a system where a successful Dex skill roll triggers an opposed Strength roll (either to resolve Damage or a Grapple), which the more dexterous but weaker attacker will usually fail? I mean, sure, if the goal is a simple single-skill aggregate of who is a better fighter, then keeping it under Strength works. But moving it to Dex while keeping Strength for Damage and Grappling resolution allows for greater granularity in the types of fighters a player can build; small and fast or big and strong, or a blending of the two.

Quote:
Naturally, my strength was highr than his by virtue of the size difference. But mass also matters: when a punch is properly thrown, all of the body weight comes with it. And with size comes reach. A bigger person can hit a smaller person sooner, so any speed advantage that might exist for a smaller fighter is offset by the delay of having to close distance.

Kinda sounds like what you were talking about in the other topic: optimum range. I've tried to do something in the past for Melee weapons, where polearms would have a reach advantage against knives, but become cumbersome if the knife-wielder can get in close.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the DEX for Brawling camp.

Reasons:

DEX is a great skill. But I'm not worried that STR would be underappreciated, in combat, considering that STR is literally your survival attribute. ie resisting damage.

In Namaan's example of sparring out of weight class; the faster, more skilled opponent is going to hit often, but without the STR to produce the higher damage rolls, the high-STR (and presumably higher weight class) opponent is going to shrug it all off.

This came to the fore when in one of my games a brawling pit came to be a major part of the sessions for quite a while. It got a bit tedious that all the best fighters, most effective, damaging fighters just had to have their Strength jacked up.

I wanted some light, quick, agile-based competitors too. In addition to skills, one fix, for balance, was making the switch to DEX for brawling. A good fighter was then encouraged to develop both.

I also got rid of Brawling parry as a separate skill. So defending yourself in a brawl remains a DEX skill too, which I feel is appropriate.

Now I can also have a great big mountain of muscle that is slow an ponderous, without also automatically giving him the natural ability to outfight and destroy a slighter, nimble adversary by default.

I like an exchange between the characters played by Dolph Lundrgen and Brandon Lee in Showdown in Little Tokyo:

Quote:


Lee: "You know, all that upper body strength really slows you down"

Lundgren: "I'm not slow."

Lee: "You didn't hit me."

Lundgren: "Well if I did, you wouldn't be here!"

Lee: "I'm not arguing....but you didn't."
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Reasoning for placing Brawling under DEX, that your strenght is actually 100% irrelevant to hit, now we all know a higher strenght will afford higher damage.
But I would say that no matter your strenght, even if 9D has no bearing on your ability to hit the target, and for that reason I am all for making most "to hit" sills to fall under DEX.

Strength even with less skills is mostly used for damage and resistance, and not an indicator of mobility.

This is why I would say that if you can not hit, you deal 0 damge regardless of your Srtength score.
And I can not see how Strenght is an indicator on yout MOBILITY and MOVEMENT and yout ability actually hit a target.

Dex however is all about mobility, to hit anad to dodge, coveing all you need to "hit" an opponent in brawling, and then after the hit strength is caalulated for damage.
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