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Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
I'm in the DEX for Brawling camp.
...
Quote:
Lee: "You know, all that upper body strength really slows you down"

Lundgren: "I'm not slow."

Lee: "You didn't hit me."

Lundgren: "Well if I did, you wouldn't be here!"

Lee: "I'm not arguing....but you didn't."


Brawling is certainly not inappropriate in Dexterity or Strength. Like I said, I do consider some misses to actually be ineffective hits which makes more sense in Strength (brawling is partially the effective use of a character's Strength). Regarding Brandon Lee's agility, I also allow the skill used to dodge (which I call a more general agility) to evade brawling melee attacks at half the roll, and that ability remains in Dexterity. So a high Dexterity or agility can definitely simulate these situations where defenders are bobbing and weaving to not let punches land. This helps me feel better about leaving brawling in Strength. To each GM their own.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the modified skill list, I let the player pick at character creation if they'd rather have melee and brawling attached to strength or dexterity, so each character is different, it also helps to kind of visualize their fighting style better.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:

I like an exchange between the characters played by Dolph Lundrgen and Brandon Lee in Showdown in Little Tokyo:

Quote:


Lee: "You know, all that upper body strength really slows you down"

Lundgren: "I'm not slow."

Lee: "You didn't hit me."

Lundgren: "Well if I did, you wouldn't be here!"

Lee: "I'm not arguing....but you didn't."


Brawling Parry, which would represent avoiding getting hit, is already under Dex, though. So, as written, Dex-based fighters will get hit less often, because they have better defenses. Strength-based fighters will get hit more often, because their native defense stat is lower.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
I'm in the DEX for Brawling camp.

Reasons:

DEX is a great skill. But I'm not worried that STR would be underappreciated, in combat, considering that STR is literally your survival attribute. ie resisting damage.


Under appreciated, is a understatement.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other D6s (Space, Fantasy, Adventure) brawling is under DEX and STR is left only with four skills.

However, in Adventure and Fantasy, MECH is replaced by COORDINATION (Measure of hand-eye coordination and fine motor abilities), which took some of the DEX skills like: marksmanship, throwing, missile weapons, sleigh of hand.
Maybe here's the potential hint?

As for the slow but strong brawlers (either humanoid or animal) the presented solution is low DEX but high brawling/fighting skill.

PS. Sneak was moved from PERC to DEX - just for info.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What?? Sneak moved from Per to Dex?? How many skills did they shove UNDER dex?!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a game design standpoint, I actually prefer the option of having either dex or strength-based fighters, FWIW (that is, the character "build" option for either should be available).

But I'd tend to disagree that smaller = faster. In the example I gave, it was a skill difference, not a speed difference, that leveled the field.

If we imagine, for example, Floyd Mayweather boxing against Mike Tyson (take each fighter in his prime), there is only one way that is going to go, and it would not be a long fight, either.

I'll give one more example from my experience: I once fought a guy who weighed 285 (so a 45-lb advantage over me) and we were approximately equal in skill. I got steam rolled. I could work out what he was doing, but I could only hold him off for so long. And since we were about equal in skill, he could "read" me, too. I'm certain I had the dex (that is, "speed") advantage, in this case, but it was of no value.

Now, for folks who want to move brawling to dex, I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a way to make good hits count. If you've got a character with low strength, hittling will be of no value... so you need a good strength anyway (that is, you MIGHT be penalizing characters by moving it to dex, because if brawling is their "thing" they will still NEED to make sure strength is their highest attribute).
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
What?? Sneak moved from Per to Dex?? How many skills did they shove UNDER dex?!


I actually think sneak under perception is a much more eloquent way of representing the skill than all the systems that put it under dex... but I've already explained that in other threads.... and don't want to derail this one.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:

I like an exchange between the characters played by Dolph Lundrgen and Brandon Lee in Showdown in Little Tokyo:

Quote:


Lee: "You know, all that upper body strength really slows you down"

Lundgren: "I'm not slow."

Lee: "You didn't hit me."

Lundgren: "Well if I did, you wouldn't be here!"

Lee: "I'm not arguing....but you didn't."


Brawling Parry, which would represent avoiding getting hit, is already under Dex, though. So, as written, Dex-based fighters will get hit less often, because they have better defenses. Strength-based fighters will get hit more often, because their native defense stat is lower.


I like what you said, but I feel like it doesn't address the point:

Which seems to me to be that the "upper body strength" is somehow "slowing" a fighter down. That is to say, he did not miss because Lee is fast (high dex) but because Lundgren is slow (presumably insufficient dex... or perhaps that the bulk is applying a penalty to his presumably dex-based skill roll).

If we wanted to really geek out about it, the real reason would be that Dolf has a lot of muscle mass and "maximal strength" but not a lot of "explosive strength" or "speed strength."

Maximal strength: the max potential of a trained muscle to exert force.

Explosive strength: the ability of a trained muscle to gather 100% of its potential "instantaneously" (immediately upon stimulation... the ability to accelerate a limb very quickly).

Speed strength: the ability of a trained muscle to flex and relax repeatedly in rapid succession (the ability to recover and re-exert very quickly... like the leg muscles when sprinting, or when throwing a series of fast punches).

Each of these different aspects of strength requires a different approach to training, but the greater the maximal strength, the higher the baseline for all other facets of strength, as well.

It all comes down to electron recruitment for the purpose of stimulating muscle fibers. It is more of a nervous system thing than a muscle mass thing... though the more mass you have to work with, the more potential there is: consider a male gymnast as an example of someone whose dex training is off the charts, and yet, his strength is developed to a sulerfluous level as what seems like a biproduct of his dex training (but is really isn't, as I said above: dex training IS strength training).

It seems to me that in general, Dexterity should govern skills that involve using things in a coordinated manner, while Strength should govern skills that use the body in a coordinated manner.

You can see that even a very massive person has a high baseline for "dex-based" movements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6EeF_oOBzM
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Last edited by Naaman on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
I'm not worried that STR would be underappreciated, in combat, considering that STR is literally your survival attribute. ie resisting damage.

And that's why I'm ok with the five classic skills under Strength, but actually the dodge skill is more of a survival ability in my game than the Strength attribute. It is always better to not get hit in the first place.

Darklighter79 wrote:
In other D6s (Space, Fantasy, Adventure) brawling is under DEX and STR is left only with four skills.

However, in Adventure and Fantasy, MECH is replaced by COORDINATION (Measure of hand-eye coordination and fine motor abilities), which took some of the DEX skills like: marksmanship, throwing, missile weapons, sleigh of hand.
Maybe here's the potential hint?

Not exactly...

garhkal wrote:
What?? Sneak moved from Per to Dex?? How many skills did they shove UNDER dex?!

Well, in D6 Adventure, The Star Wars Mechanical attribute was not really replaced by Coordination per se. Dexterity was split into two attributes: Coordination and Reflexes. Mechanical and Technical were eliminated; the skills were generalized and put in other attributes, like piloting (all vehicles) in Coordination and repair (anything) in Perception. SW's Perception was also split into two attributes. D6 Fantasy does have a similar attribute set-up (with two DEX and two PER attributes).

D6 Adventure moved climbing/jumping to one of the Dex attributes and split it into two skills (I also split it but left them both in Str). And yes, they moved brawling to one of the Dex skills, but they also moved running to its Str attribute. And SW's two parry skills are folded into the attack skills (also like I did).

And garhkal, D6 Adventure (and D6 Fantasy) are available to read in the Library, no download even needed. FYI.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
From a game design standpoint, I actually prefer the option of having either dex or strength-based fighters, FWIW (that is, the character "build" option for either should be available).

But I'd tend to disagree that smaller = faster. In the example I gave, it was a skill difference, not a speed difference, that leveled the field.

I'm okay with revising the example to simply "fast and skilled"; the point stands.

Quote:
Now, for folks who want to move brawling to dex, I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a way to make good hits count. If you've got a character with low strength, hittling will be of no value... so you need a good strength anyway (that is, you MIGHT be penalizing characters by moving it to dex, because if brawling is their "thing" they will still NEED to make sure strength is their highest attribute).

As a general rule, I use a modified version of the Accuracy Damage Bonus rules from Rules of Engagement; for every 3 points of success on the Attack roll, they get a +1 to Damage. This creates room for a faster, more skilled attacker to get in effective hits against a stronger opponent by virtue of hitting pressure points, weak spots, etc.

Another thing to factor in would be Stamina; if a fight goes on long enough, the fighter with the highest endurance will be at an advantage, too.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
From a game design standpoint, I actually prefer the option of having either dex or strength-based fighters, FWIW (that is, the character "build" option for either should be available).

But I'd tend to disagree that smaller = faster. In the example I gave, it was a skill difference, not a speed difference, that leveled the field.

I'm okay with revising the example to simply "fast and skilled"; the point stands.

Quote:
Now, for folks who want to move brawling to dex, I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a way to make good hits count. If you've got a character with low strength, hittling will be of no value... so you need a good strength anyway (that is, you MIGHT be penalizing characters by moving it to dex, because if brawling is their "thing" they will still NEED to make sure strength is their highest attribute).

As a general rule, I use a modified version of the Accuracy Damage Bonus rules from Rules of Engagement; for every 3 points of success on the Attack roll, they get a +1 to Damage. This creates room for a faster, more skilled attacker to get in effective hits against a stronger opponent by virtue of hitting pressure points, weak spots, etc.

Another thing to factor in would be Stamina; if a fight goes on long enough, the fighter with the highest endurance will be at an advantage, too.


Agreed on both counts.

I was aware of your adoption of the RoE rules, but included that bit for others who might not have considered the issue.

Stamina is significant in a fight.

When fighters otherwise seem to be at a stalemate, stamina seems to be the deciding factor (other than luck/opportunity).

I watched a fight in the 205 weight class wherein a very buff dude at 5'7" went up against a "scrawny-with-beer-belly" old timer at the same weight (he was obviously taller). The buff dude opened the first round with a Superman punch and basically gassed himself out in the first few seconds with a flurry of rapid misses. The skinny-fat guy eventually got a hold of him and submitted him, despite the apparent strength difference.

I can't remember if the fight went beyond the first round. I do remember it was not a super quick fight, but the buff dude was just worn out about 15 seconds into the fight, and he never got a second wind.

In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.


Oh, I like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Naaman wrote:

In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.


Oh, I like that.


Thanks. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Very nice. I was thinking in terms of requiring a Stamina roll once per round against escalating Difficulty, but this achieves the same basic effect with a lot less dice rolling.

Quote:
Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.

The only potential issue here is that no one in the SWU would have any idea what a Hail Mary is.
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