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Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.


How's about rather than # of rounds,it sets a # of actions...
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Quote:
Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.

The only potential issue here is that no one in the SWU would have any idea what a Hail Mary is.


You're forgetting about the inhabitants of Prisencolinensinainciusol VI, whose Force Tradition centers around Marys, the Jedi who visited 15,000 years ago, whom they have since devoted a major portion of their lives to upholding her mythical actions.

Jedi Knight Marys, who prevented a famine by driving off the leopard voles with a hailstorm. It was a desperate, unlikely, plan, or, as the Prisencolinensinainciusolopians will say, a "Hail Marys".

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:

In this case, I'm in favor of rolling stamina up front (at the beginning of the fight), and declaring to each combatant the number of rounds they have before they start taking fatigue penalties. It's pretty obvious to oneself when fatigue starts creeping in... it's not like it comes up by surprise.

Using a method like this, you could also allow for "special" moves or "hail Mary's" that take up additional rounds of stamina, so if Brawler A has 12 rounds before he gets tired, he can say: "I do a hail-Mary, which will count as 2 rounds worth of stamina." So at the end of the round, he now has 10 rounds left, instead of 11. And the hail-Mary provides some kind of bonus to damage... if successful.


How's about rather than # of rounds,it sets a # of actions...


Not arguing that rounds v. actions is good or bad, but this reminds me of Apocalypse Prevention Inc., which incorporates stamina cost and time into its action system.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

The only potential issue here is that no one in the SWU would have any idea what a Hail Mary is.


Touche. Razz

garhkal wrote:


How's about rather than # of rounds,it sets a # of actions...


Makes sense. In either case, there could be a "rest" mechanic to allow for the recuperation of available actions/rounds during the fight.

In full speed sparring (which tires both fighters out in under a minute, usually), one tactic that is used when both fighters are in a "neutral" situation (for example, one fighter has in ineffective hold on the other), the fighter who is being pinned/held just relaxes for a bit. When the "dominant" fighter realizes his hold is not working (opponent hasn't tapped), he tries to reestablish the hold by changing the way it is applied. This tiny movement loosens the hold for just a brief moment. In that moment, the held fighter breaks free with a sudden burst of explosive movement. If he's skilled, then while he was resting, he was also thinking about how to reverse the hold once the opponent loosens up.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
My Reasoning for placing Brawling under DEX, that your strenght is actually 100% irrelevant to hit, now we all know a higher strenght will afford higher damage.
But I would say that no matter your strenght, even if 9D has no bearing on your ability to hit the target, and for that reason I am all for making most "to hit" sills to fall under DEX.

Strength even with less skills is mostly used for damage and resistance, and not an indicator of mobility.

This is why I would say that if you can not hit, you deal 0 damge regardless of your Srtength score.
And I can not see how Strenght is an indicator on yout MOBILITY and MOVEMENT and yout ability actually hit a target.

Dex however is all about mobility, to hit anad to dodge, coveing all you need to "hit" an opponent in brawling, and then after the hit strength is caalulated for damage.


Not trying to be controversial, but how do you rationalize climbing/jumping, swimming and acrobatics as strength skills (per RAW)?

The notion of strength in the English language is one thing, while the concept in an RPG is much broader than the ability to apply kinetic force.

Likewise, the word "Dexterity" tends to refer to fine motor skills (use of the hands), whereas what the attribute in D6 seems to imply is gross motor skills (dodge, running, brawling parry, etc) and, most specifically, the ability to use character-scale items (objects that are not part of the body).

The idea that I'm going with is that brawling relies (far) more on strength than it does on dexterity, and therefore, I put it into strength.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about looking at a boxing match.

2 Minute rounds with a "rest" between the rounds.
In boxing this is limited to 8-12 rounds normally.

Can something like this be incorporated with stamina, maybe a full round, add +2 to rolls pr round without rest in between
and if you do rest in between the rounds, you reduce this to a +1 on the rolls

cumulative.

Roll stamina for round one, the fight lasts longer than one round, so next round you roll stamina +2 , if the fight still goes on you then roll stamina for next round at +3 and so on

the +Pip being added "difficulty"


alternative is to roll a easy in the fist round, if you rest you roll -1 and must have a "normal" in round two, if you do not rest between you have no "-1 bonus"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
How about looking at a boxing match.

2 Minute rounds with a "rest" between the rounds.
In boxing this is limited to 8-12 rounds normally.

Can something like this be incorporated with stamina, maybe a full round, add +2 to rolls pr round without rest in between
and if you do rest in between the rounds, you reduce this to a +1 on the rolls

cumulative.

Roll stamina for round one, the fight lasts longer than one round, so next round you roll stamina +2 , if the fight still goes on you then roll stamina for next round at +3 and so on

the +Pip being added "difficulty"


alternative is to roll a easy in the fist round, if you rest you roll -1 and must have a "normal" in round two, if you do not rest between you have no "-1 bonus"


That's similar to what I've seen with most RPGs. And it works for most folks. Smile The stamina checks increase in difficulty over a certain number of rounds.

The thing I don't like about this method is that it still leaves the problem of "surprise! You're too fatigued to continue!" Whereas in reality, the ability to perform tapers off as energy reserves diminish. Rolling in advance allows for the players to make decisions about what their character will do as they begin to tire, and allows the GM to impose penalties cumulatively rather than suddenly.

For example, after your stamina expires (let's say, 10 rounds), you get another 10 rounds but all actions take a -1D penalty. After that, you get, say, 5 rounds, but at -2D penalty. If you don't rest by round 5, you are fatigued and cannot act for a certain number of rounds (and have a chance of falling unconscious).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

In full speed sparring (which tires both fighters out in under a minute, usually), one tactic that is used when both fighters are in a "neutral" situation (for example, one fighter has in ineffective hold on the other), the fighter who is being pinned/held just relaxes for a bit. When the "dominant" fighter realizes his hold is not working (opponent hasn't tapped), he tries to reestablish the hold by changing the way it is applied. This tiny movement loosens the hold for just a brief moment. In that moment, the held fighter breaks free with a sudden burst of explosive movement. If he's skilled, then while he was resting, he was also thinking about how to reverse the hold once the opponent loosens up.


It's also while in boxing, most fighters take time to hold onto their opponents, so both can catch their breath.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
My Reasoning for placing Brawling under DEX, that your strenght is actually 100% irrelevant to hit, now we all know a higher strenght will afford higher damage.
But I would say that no matter your strenght, even if 9D has no bearing on your ability to hit the target, and for that reason I am all for making most "to hit" sills to fall under DEX.

Strength even with less skills is mostly used for damage and resistance, and not an indicator of mobility.

This is why I would say that if you can not hit, you deal 0 damge regardless of your Srtength score.
And I can not see how Strenght is an indicator on yout MOBILITY and MOVEMENT and yout ability actually hit a target.

Dex however is all about mobility, to hit anad to dodge, coveing all you need to "hit" an opponent in brawling, and then after the hit strength is caalulated for damage.


Not trying to be controversial, but how do you rationalize climbing/jumping, swimming and acrobatics as strength skills (per RAW)?

The notion of strength in the English language is one thing, while the concept in an RPG is much broader than the ability to apply kinetic force.

Likewise, the word "Dexterity" tends to refer to fine motor skills (use of the hands), whereas what the attribute in D6 seems to imply is gross motor skills (dodge, running, brawling parry, etc) and, most specifically, the ability to use character-scale items (objects that are not part of the body).

The idea that I'm going with is that brawling relies (far) more on strength than it does on dexterity, and therefore, I put it into strength.



By this reasoning, Shooting a blaster should be under perception, after all you more rely on your sight to shoot something than you do your fine motor skills.......?

My point is that maybe the entire skill list needs to revised, skills moved from attribute A to B or even C.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
My Reasoning for placing Brawling under DEX, that your strenght is actually 100% irrelevant to hit, now we all know a higher strenght will afford higher damage.
But I would say that no matter your strenght, even if 9D has no bearing on your ability to hit the target, and for that reason I am all for making most "to hit" sills to fall under DEX.

Strength even with less skills is mostly used for damage and resistance, and not an indicator of mobility.

This is why I would say that if you can not hit, you deal 0 damge regardless of your Srtength score.
And I can not see how Strenght is an indicator on yout MOBILITY and MOVEMENT and yout ability actually hit a target.

Dex however is all about mobility, to hit anad to dodge, coveing all you need to "hit" an opponent in brawling, and then after the hit strength is caalulated for damage.


Not trying to be controversial, but how do you rationalize climbing/jumping, swimming and acrobatics as strength skills (per RAW)?

The notion of strength in the English language is one thing, while the concept in an RPG is much broader than the ability to apply kinetic force.

Likewise, the word "Dexterity" tends to refer to fine motor skills (use of the hands), whereas what the attribute in D6 seems to imply is gross motor skills (dodge, running, brawling parry, etc) and, most specifically, the ability to use character-scale items (objects that are not part of the body).

The idea that I'm going with is that brawling relies (far) more on strength than it does on dexterity, and therefore, I put it into strength.



By this reasoning, Shooting a blaster should be under perception, after all you more rely on your sight to shoot something than you do your fine motor skills.......?

My point is that maybe the entire skill list needs to revised, skills moved from attribute A to B or even C.


Maybe. If we are saying that "to hit" should be dexterity, then it should really be perception because if you can't see it, how can you target it? So all attack rolls would need to be perception... even brawling: wrestling because you'd have to feel (perceive) your opponent in order to have any idea what he is doing or what to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since to repair stuff, you need to see and feel it, perhaps all tech skills should get moved to per and dex!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Maybe. If we are saying that "to hit" should be dexterity, then it should really be perception because if you can't see it, how can you target it? So all attack rolls would need to be perception... even brawling: wrestling because you'd have to feel (perceive) your opponent in order to have any idea what he is doing or what to do."


In a way yes, and that is where the issue is with some of the skills and where they belong under the attribute.

If we look to D20 systems, like Pathfinder or D&D, or even SW D20
we see that melee to hit is based on the strength attribute, with anything "ranged" based on Dextery.
However there is also an opetion to take a feat/perk to allow the melee with Dexterity, In the case of d20 this is usually "weapon finesse"

You can even start with said Feat/Perk


Now this could maybe be something to use with D6, maybe if you are a finesse/dexerity based fighter, you can take a special ability allowing you to simply put brawling under Dexterity, at the cost of -1D skill dice in character creation, or something

By doing that you can allow for dexterity based and strength based fighters equally.
Strength will still be applied to damage like normal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Brawling, a DEXTERITY Skill? Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
If we look to D20 systems, like Pathfinder or D&D, or even SW D20
we see that melee to hit is based on the strength attribute, with anything "ranged" based on Dextery.
However there is also an opetion to take a feat/perk to allow the melee with Dexterity, In the case of d20 this is usually "weapon finesse"

You can even start with said Feat/Perk

Ugh.

Mamatried wrote:
By this reasoning, Shooting a blaster should be under perception, after all you more rely on your sight to shoot something than you do your fine motor skills.......?

My point is that maybe the entire skill list needs to revised, skills moved from attribute A to B or even C.

Yeah, we don't have any threads here about the skill list needing revised. Cool

Naaman wrote:
Maybe. If we are saying that "to hit" should be dexterity, then it should really be perception because if you can't see it, how can you target it? So all attack rolls would need to be perception... even brawling: wrestling because you'd have to feel (perceive) your opponent in order to have any idea what he is doing or what to do.
garhkal wrote:
Since to repair stuff, you need to see and feel it, perhaps all tech skills should get moved to per and dex!

We could just have two attributes:

Remembering Stuff
Perceiving/Doing Stuff

Or we could just have one Uni-Attribute to rule all skills?

Or, we could just have no attributes and instead only skills.

Maybe with on of these options there would be no discussions where no one agrees what attribute skills should be on!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been thinking about weapon finesse this whole time, but was trying to stay D6 as much as possible.

I personally think that brawling should default to strength with some kind of GM approved option to have either a dexterity-based unarmed attack skill or just move it (on a character-by-character basis) to dexterity.

The only caution I'd offer is what I said earlier: without having a high strength anyway, there's very little value in having a high dex brawling character. There would need to be someway to convert the dex (or "speed") into a damage bonus for a character who relies on dex instead of strength.

But in general, when two characters are equally skilled, the larger one will usually win (mass differentials are extremely difficult to overcome, all other things being equal). Since mass is a factor when determining a strength characteristic, it seems natural (to me) to default brawling to strength, since mass is (IMO) the biggest determiner of a baseline ability to win a fight without weapons (regardless of fighting style).

I'll mention Mike Tyson vs. Floyd Mayweather once more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-22RvoxJU_I
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll mention Mike Tyson vs. Floyd Mayweather once more.


Indeed, however both here does have an above average "dexterity" I would assume, se well as strenght and skill.

iron Mike is fast, very fast in fact, and yes he is strong. but he is also very very fast.

Now if we look to somone without the skill, with average dexterity, or "speed" if you will, things begin to even out.
However if you have one that is quiker or has higher speed, he will land hit more often compared to someone slower.

Now how do we balance that out?

Lets take a rancor 7D strenght and 1D(ish) Dex, vs a human with 2D dex and strenght, the human is faster, has higher speed, should be and is by default harder to hit for the rancor than the rancor is for the human.
The human will it the rancor a lot more often than the rancor, based on speed.

However since the human hhas 2D strength , the damage output will not be felt by the much bigger and thougher rancor.
The rancor will most likely kill the human in one blow when he hits.

Now add Brawling skill to the rancor, vs a dodge roll of the human.
Despite the human being more nible, a lot more mobile ( size not taken in consideration here) he vill never be able to dodge with a cap on 4D (2D Dex +2D Dodge) comapred to the 9D of the strenght, totally negating the nimleness and basically being prone.

I have a friend we somethime for the fun of it sparr, boxing and kicking, nothing "martial arts" but basic brawling.

I am heavier and stronger than him, not stronger by much but I am.
He is faster than me, quite a bit faster actually, though slightly less strong.

Somehow he lands more hits to me than I land on him, but that can not be since I am stronger?


Now skill can naturally even this out, I can tranin some martial art, train to be quicker to a degree, and I can grow stronger.

But without actually taking anythinng in the skill, keeping it "natural ability" then sorry to say, the higher speed, the quickest figher will land more blows than the stron one, though he may naturally not deal the same level of damage.
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