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Tactical Combat
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
FWIW, we operate like that in real life. When moving tactically, we don't move with the assumption that we will "dodge" a shot that is fired at us. We move in such a way as to make ourselves a "hard target," or "not worth the effort/risk."

So, a sniper, for example, may want to shoot at targets of opportunity. But he gets exactly one shot before he goes from hunter to hunted. One or two dudes with a couple of rifles don't stand much of a chance against a platoon-minus-one with machine guns and grenade launchers and SDMs of their own.

So if a target is hard to hit, it may be worth waiting for a more complacent group of enemy soldiers to stroll into their AO than risk wasting a shot on someone who is expecting to get shot at.


Nicely put Naaman.. IF the guy the stormie is aiming at, just stays behind hard cover, he may instead MOVE, to get a better angle to shoot. Or to disengage.. If the target however, decides to run out into the open, going from one cover to another, IF that stormie held his shot,he could then take the shot while he's running.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I am hugely in favor of an "agility" skill (or similar) doubling as the ranged reaction skill for character scale combat.

Here's a thought...

Combine Running and Dodge into a single skill (Agility, if you prefer, or something similar), but then treat it as a Dice Pool, as in, the character has to decide how much dice they're going to put into making a Move, and how much they're willing to split off as a Difficulty Modifier applied to any ranged attacks made against them.


Sort of like how the Quick draw skill is used..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IF the guy the stormie is aiming at, just stays behind hard cover, he may instead MOVE, to get a better angle to shoot.

The easiest way to do that would be to have the character deliberately choose partial cover (75%), which adds a +4D modifier to any Difficulty to hit him. Then the 25% of him sticking out from behind cover (which presumably is his head and whatever limb is holding his weapon) can shoot back.

Quote:
Or to disengage.. If the target however, decides to run out into the open, going from one cover to another, IF that stormie held his shot, he could then take the shot while he's running.

Factoring in direction of movement (i.e. moving laterally vs. toward away), as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I see. So, what word would you use to describe someone who is completely protected against blaster fire (100% cover). I call that "cover" and its what I meant when I said "from cover to cover."
I would agree. "Cover" in the context of the RAW is something provides both Protection and Concealment, in that the attacker can't see the target, and any shots fired at the target hit whatever the target is hiding behind. A solid wall would provide Cover, a hedge of bushes would provide Concealment, and a .5-meter thick wall of transparisteel would provide Protection.

Quote:
The situation you describe, I might call it "partial cover." But in my prior references, "cover" always assumes complete cover.

Partial Cover has more to do with how much of the character is sticking out from behind whatever the Cover is. Presumably, if a character is leaning out to shoot around the Cover, they are 75% Covered (per the RAW), and are -4D to be hit.

Quote:
For partial exposure, I'd probably treat it like a called shot. If I were using RAW, it would be as easy as using the called shot rules in 2RE. Or, the called shot rules I posted near the beginning of this thread.

Exactly. This is part of why I folded the called shot rules into my house rule scale system; a character mostly hidden behind something providing Cover is going to have a smaller silhouette, and thus be smaller in Scale. The most complicated part would be figuring out whether or not, on a failed roll, the shooter missed entirely, or if they hit the Cover, and thus have to roll damage against the Cover to see if the shot punched through.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
I see. So, what word would you use to describe someone who is completely protected against blaster fire (100% cover). I call that "cover" and its what I meant when I said "from cover to cover."
I would agree. "Cover" in the context of the RAW is something provides both Protection and Concealment, in that the attacker can't see the target, and any shots fired at the target hit whatever the target is hiding behind. A solid wall would provide Cover, a hedge of bushes would provide Concealment, and a .5-meter thick wall of transparisteel would provide Protection.

Quote:
The situation you describe, I might call it "partial cover." But in my prior references, "cover" always assumes complete cover.

Partial Cover has more to do with how much of the character is sticking out from behind whatever the Cover is. Presumably, if a character is leaning out to shoot around the Cover, they are 75% Covered (per the RAW), and are -4D to be hit.

Quote:
For partial exposure, I'd probably treat it like a called shot. If I were using RAW, it would be as easy as using the called shot rules in 2RE. Or, the called shot rules I posted near the beginning of this thread.

Exactly. This is part of why I folded the called shot rules into my house rule scale system; a character mostly hidden behind something providing Cover is going to have a smaller silhouette, and thus be smaller in Scale. The most complicated part would be figuring out whether or not, on a failed roll, the shooter missed entirely, or if they hit the Cover, and thus have to roll damage against the Cover to see if the shot punched through.


Regarding the bolted part, it seems that our definitions are not being consistently applied (?)

Cover prevents damage by stopping the shot entirely. Concealment can be penetrated with (essentially) no loss of lethality.

In the case of concealment, the simplest way I can think of is to roll a different color dice for the bonus dice. If no different color dice are available, just roll the dodge, keep the total in mind, then roll the bonus dice separately.

If applying a penalty to the attack roll, you could always have the defender roll the dice after making an attack roll, and subtract the second roll from the attack roll (this of course could result in a negative total, but... in the end, it's the difference between two rolls that is being considered).

In the case of heavy firepower that, after enough hits, could penetrate the cover, I would be inclined to treat it like armor instead of cover. Defeating armor, after all, is done by placing shots close enough together that the armor eventually fails in that spot.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Cover prevents damage by stopping the shot entirely. Concealment can be penetrated with (essentially) no loss of lethality.

My understanding of the RAW was that Protection stopped the shot entirely, while Concealment blocked Perception or Sensors, while Cover provided both Protection and Concealment.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Cover prevents damage by stopping the shot entirely. Concealment can be penetrated with (essentially) no loss of lethality.

My understanding of the RAW was that Protection stopped the shot entirely, while Concealment blocked Perception or Sensors, while Cover provided both Protection and Concealment.


Oh, okay. I thought you were intending to use my given definition of cover.

FWIW, I don't think the RAW definition makes much sense.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, some things would provide partial or total Protection but almost no effective Concealment. Things like energy shields or blaster-proof transparisteel viewports. Anyone behind them would be perfectly visible to an attacker, but would also be partially or completely protected from attack.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. In the specific case where the "protection" allows line of sight to the target, if it is impenetrable to the attacker's weapon, then I'd call it "cover."

If the attacker's weapon could penetrate it (but might lose enough energy to become ineffective after doing so), I'd treat it like armor (add it's "protection" value to the strength roll to resist).

In other words, "blasterproof glass" causes an automatic miss.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not use the RAW’s rules for Damaged Protection reducing damage to characters behind it?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not familar with them. They migh t just work.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
This discussion is somewhat confusing because cover and protection are game terms that mean specific things. See R&E p.94-95. Cover provides concealment (increases difficulty to hit targets) and protection can reduce or eliminate damage. Different situations can provide just cover or both cover and protection. For convenience of reference, the rules are also provided here (only very slightly tweaked from RAW).
Naaman wrote:
Good point...

^ From the previous page ^

CRMcNeill wrote:
...Why not use the RAW’s rules for Damaged Protection reducing damage to characters behind it?
Naaman wrote:
I'm not familar with them. They migh t just work.

For your convenience, see the link I re-shared above to familiarize yourself.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Whill.

Those rules look good. They require more steps than I'd prefer, but they make sense, nonetheless.

The only issue I'd have is when the "protection" is large enough (even if it's weak) that a character can move around behind it, even after it has been penetrated and still claim its benefit.

For this reason, I might modify the rules to a more general purpose system, using the RAW for protection that is more or less "man-sized."

Here's my thoughts:

When shooting through "protection" (still don't like that word in this context), roll damage against the protection first, and subtract the protection's roll from the damage roll. The character takes the balance of the damage (roll against the character's strength+armor).

If the damage roll against the protection is 16 or more over the protection's body strength roll, a "man-sized" portion of the protection is destroyed and can no longer be used for protection (the rest of the object may be used until it is destroyed).

For future reference, whenever I say "cover" I mean an obstacle that protects (completely) against blaster fire.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strictly speaking, cover is defined as something that offers protection and/or concealment. For example, the phrase "under cover of darkness".
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, not in a gun fighting context, its not. "Cover" is a term that is deliberately distinct from "concealment."

They are two separate concepts which, for fairly obvious reasons, must remain distinct in a soldier's mind.

Anyway, for the sake of consistency with my own habits, I will always use "cover" to refer to something which stops weapons fire, regardelss of whether it also offers concealment.

Concealment has its own set of tactical applications.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the RAW terms were close enough to not warrant renaming them, but that is just me.
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