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Whill
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 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | | There is no special restrictions on specializations. The text does say that a player can take a skill die and break it into specializations, but it doesn't expressly forbid, or even imply, that there is a limit to how many skill dice you can do this with. |
R&E: Chapter 1, p.28
| Quote: | Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization. |
So you can only spend 1D out of your 7D in starting skills on speciallizations, if that't what yo meant.
The three above is italicized in the original text. For your 1D (max) in beginning skill dice, you are trading that in for exactly three separate specializations. It doesn't even say "up to" three. And then it states that you add 1D to each (of the three) specializations. Not "at least" 1D. Not "1D for each specialization die allocated" or anything of the sort. This language does in effect restrict players from adding more than 1D to any starting skill specialization.
There is nothing restricting you from from having two seperate specializations under the same skill. You could have Starfighter Piloting: Y-Wing and Starfighter Piloting: X-Wing. There would be two of your three specializations, and you would add "1D to each specialization".
And after character creations, some GMs may allow players to spend some of their starting CPs (5) per normal character advancement rules on skills or skill specializations.
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kinseyfs
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not going to get into the specialization discussion or the alien special abilities. As far as advanced skills go, why penalize the character when they take a skill that will typically not affect game play. The player is already crippling the character in other areas. Let's take the Slussi doctor example, First Aid of 9D with a medicine of 5D, that's 4 out of its starting 7 dice. That means sure, they have an amazing medical skill, but not much else. We have a one-trick pony. A handicapped character who can do little outside of First Aid or Medicine that takes twice as long. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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How are you getting 4d spend out of 7d for a 5d (A) Medicine and 9d first aid?
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | How are you getting 4d spend out of 7d for a 5d (A) Medicine and 9d first aid? |
Yeah, the math is not working for me either.
Sluissi have a max TEC of 5D and they get a one-time 4D bonus to technical skills at character creation. So TEC 5D + 4D = First Aid 9D (which uses the bonus 4D), then add advanced skill Medicine of 5D costs an additional 5D (which comes out of the starting 7D of skills). Looks like it costs all but 2D of the characters starting skill dice. |
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Kytross
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| kinseyfs wrote: | | I'm not going to get into the specialization discussion or the alien special abilities. As far as advanced skills go, why penalize the character when they take a skill that will typically not affect game play. The player is already crippling the character in other areas. Let's take the Slussi doctor example, First Aid of 9D with a medicine of 5D, that's 4 out of its starting 7 dice. That means sure, they have an amazing medical skill, but not much else. We have a one-trick pony. A handicapped character who can do little outside of First Aid or Medicine that takes twice as long. |
A few things.
Sluissi get an additional 4D in Technical skills. So that's 13 skill die you're dealing with.
Secondly, Sluissi can improve a technical skill by 4D at character creation. So the Sluissi in question could have a (A) Medicine of 4D. Which would cost 4D. Since they're already at 5D for Technical with their attribute, they don't need to improve First Aid.
Which means a Sluissi can start at 4D (A) Medicine and still have seven skill dice to play with.
But ignore the math, let's get back to your real question: Why penalize advanced skills at character creation?
Because advanced skills cost twice as much as regular skills when you advance them after character creation, take seven times as long to learn and cannot be improved through use, they must be trained. As they should, an advanced skill should allow you to do things that a normal skill cannot.
However, at character creation advanced skills cost exactly the same as regular skills. Saddling on a college and medical school debt to a player when they have (A) Medicine doesn't seem to be that bad of a penalty.
R&E: Chapter 1, p.28
| Quote: |
Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization. |
Wow, that's a strict interpretation of the rules. There's no mention of improving skills by pips at character creation, do you forbid that too?
I don't see anything unbalancing about allowing someone 2D in a specialization to start. It's their dice, if that's how they want to spend them, so be it. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I havent really seen advanced skills used frequently so I cant see the problem..
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kinseyfs
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Apologies, I browse these forums at work, and can't always remember what race gets which. Brain was thinking as more of the Jawa/Ubesse Tech skill bonuses.
Pretty much my view is, unless you plan on having a situation where the advanced skill is going to break your game. Why have the penalty? All it does is discourage players from taking the skills. I mean really, the only thing we have seen a debt for is a ship and that is only one a hand full of templates. By your statement, starting with an advanced skill is just as much of a character boost as owning a starship? I don't think so.
Personally, I would want a player to take advanced skills, it gives me something to work with. I know if someone has Medicine in the party, I can throw a bit tougher enemies at the group knowing they have a proper medic. In my eyes, Advanced Skill = Plot.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | But ignore the math, let's get back to your real question: Why penalize advanced skills at character creation?
Because advanced skills cost twice as much as regular skills when you advance them after character creation, take seven times as long to learn and cannot be improved through use, they must be trained. As they should, an advanced skill should allow you to do things that a normal skill cannot.
However, at character creation advanced skills cost exactly the same as regular skills. Saddling on a college and medical school debt to a player when they have (A) Medicine doesn't seem to be that bad of a penalty.
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Specializations are also cheaper at character creation (1D = 3D specialization) vs. 1/2 cp cost after creation.
Personally I see no reason to handicap characters who choose advanced skills at creation above what is in the rules. Since advance skills tend to be more academic versions of existing skills e.g. medicine, engineering, etc. But I would want to understand the background that justified the skills. A physician or design engineer would be perfect backgrounds to justify the skills.
I am also not concerned about the strict interpretation of the specialization skills at creation. I understand, but disagree with the interpretation that Whill, for example provided. We allow characters to spend as many dice as they like on specializations, we just limit the total number of dice put to a single skill (both regular and specialization dice). Usually we use a limit of total of 2D regular skill dice and at most 3D total dice. So a character could be 4D DEX, +2D blaster, +1D heavy blaster pistol, i.e. DEX 4D, blaster 6D, blaster: heavy blaster pistol 7D (costs 2D+1). Alternately a character could be DEX 4D blaster 4D, blaster: heavy blaster pistol 7D (costs 1D). |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10514
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | R&E: Chapter 1, p.28
| Quote: |
Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization. |
Wow, that's a strict interpretation of the rules. |
That's not an "interpretation". That's exact text from the book on p.28. Check it out.
| Kytross wrote: | | There's no mention of improving skills by pips at character creation, do you forbid that too? |
No, I allow 1D of the starting skill dice to be split up into 3 pips if the player wishes. I wasn't quoting my personal house rules.
When you say, "I read through the 2nd ed R&E and here's the scoop... There is no special restrictions on specializations" you are obviously referring to RAW. Really, the sentence of the quoted rule is not open for interpretation. In RAW, there are special restrictions on specializations.
You are certainly free to use whatever rule you want. It doesn't matter what RAW says. There is nothing wrong with the way you do it. Do whatever works for you! But if you are talking about your personal house rules, just say so.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| kinseyfs wrote: | Apologies, I browse these forums at work, and can't always remember what race gets which. Brain was thinking as more of the Jawa/Ubesse Tech skill bonuses.
Pretty much my view is, unless you plan on having a situation where the advanced skill is going to break your game. Why have the penalty? All it does is discourage players from taking the skills. I mean really, the only thing we have seen a debt for is a ship and that is only one a hand full of templates. By your statement, starting with an advanced skill is just as much of a character boost as owning a starship? I don't think so.
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To maintain some semblance of balance. If grog mcfrog can spend 4d of his initial skills buying 2d of (A) smachmybich but everyone else has to wait till in game an spend double cp to have to earn/improve them, it is not going to make the game balanced..
| Quote: |
Personally, I would want a player to take advanced skills, it gives me something to work with. I know if someone has Medicine in the party, I can throw a bit tougher enemies at the group knowing they have a proper medic. In my eyes, Advanced Skill = Plot. |
In my eyes, i also have no problem with them GAINING them, but they have to EARN it... I liken it to adnd where for someone to get weapon mastery they have to find a teacher and convince them to train them.
| Quote: | | Personally I see no reason to handicap characters who choose advanced skills at creation above what is in the rules. Since advance skills tend to be more academic versions of existing skills e.g. medicine, engineering, etc. But I would want to understand the background that justified the skills. A physician or design engineer would be perfect backgrounds to justify the skills. |
How is requiring them to take on a 10k or so debt to a school IF you allow them to start off with it any different to them EARNING that 10k debt when they learn it in game?
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: |
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You may want to skip this if you don't like parsing grammer.
| Whill wrote: | | Kytross wrote: | R&E: Chapter 1, p.28
| Quote: |
Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization. |
Wow, that's a strict interpretation of the rules. |
That's not an "interpretation". That's exact text from the book on p.28. Check it out.
When you say, "I read through the 2nd ed R&E and here's the scoop... There is no special restrictions on specializations" you are obviously referring to RAW. Really, the sentence of the quoted rule is not open for interpretation. In RAW, there are special restrictions on specializations.
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Respectully, Whill, I think the rules are open to some interpretation. Your interpretation is reading "You can spend" as "You can only spend." I read the same way I would read a legal contract. "You can only spend..." is clear, while "You can spend..." contains some ambiquity about whether one could spend more than 1D, say 2D to get 6D in specializations.
Compare this to "A beginning character has 7D to spend on skills, you can add 1D or 2D to any of the skills shown on the template." An equally strict interpretation would mean characters can only add full Ds to starting skills. Most GMs in my experience allow players to break up 1D into 3 pips. If you interpret specializations strictly, you should logically interpret skills strictly as well. (I'm not sure whether you do or do not.)
On re-reading these two sections, I suspect that Whill's interpretation is likely what the Game Designers intended. But unfortunately as is frequently the case, the designers used ambigous language in their rule. To remove any ambiguity, they should have inserted the word "only" into the rule.
Using a strict (inferred only) interpretation of both rules doesn't seem unbalanced and would certainly speed up the character stat creation. However, I don't find the alternate interpretation unbalanced and since, in my experience, the longer part of character creation is the background and connections rather than the selection of stats, I don't see any significant advantage to the strict interpretation. Since it allows the player more flexibility in character creation, I will give the nod to the loose interpretation either as an interpretation or as a house rule. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think the RAW is quite clear that its 1D you can use for specializations. Also, you can only divide full D:s when creating characters. If people play that way is another matter... Again, the RAW are not important when it comes to specific games, only when discussing them.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I think the RAW is quite clear that its 1D you can use for specializations. Also, you can only divide full D:s when creating characters. If people play that way is another matter... Again, the RAW are not important when it comes to specific games, only when discussing them. |
I realize this is slightly lashing a deceased equine, but quite clear would say "can only spend blah blah blah." Not quite so clear says "can spend blah blah blah." The RAW is not quite so clear.
I don't have my version 2 rules on this continent, but I'd like to check to see what the rules and examples there said. I wonder if it is coloring my initial reading of the rules. Coming to this fresh it does now appear to me that the best interpretation is the one outlined by Whill and ZzaphodD. My only point is the rules could be written without ambiguity, they are not written without ambiguity, and hence either POV is tenable interpretation. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | kinseyfs wrote: | ...Why have the penalty?...
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To maintain some semblance of balance. If grog mcfrog can spend 4d of his initial skills buying 2d of (A) smachmybich but everyone else has to wait till in game an spend double cp to have to earn/improve them, it is not going to make the game balanced..
| Quote: |
Personally, I would want a player to take advanced skills, it gives me something to work with. I know if someone has Medicine in the party, I can throw a bit tougher enemies at the group knowing they have a proper medic. In my eyes, Advanced Skill = Plot. |
In my eyes, i also have no problem with them GAINING them, but they have to EARN it... I liken it to adnd where for someone to get weapon mastery they have to find a teacher and convince them to train them.
| Quote: | | Personally I see no reason to handicap characters who choose advanced skills at creation above what is in the rules. Since advance skills tend to be more academic versions of existing skills e.g. medicine, engineering, etc. But I would want to understand the background that justified the skills. A physician or design engineer would be perfect backgrounds to justify the skills. |
How is requiring them to take on a 10k or so debt to a school IF you allow them to start off with it any different to them EARNING that 10k debt when they learn it in game? |
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garhkal, you quoted me but I never said anything about people owing debts for starting skills. Were you making some point to me?
Personally I think getting a medical degree at character creation makes far more sense that acquiring one during play. In play would be difficult for most active PCs. They are just too busy to spend time on the required classes and coursework. I have one PC whose background was med student. He did add 1D to his medicine, but that was after (a) using the skill as the ship's medic for a year of game time and (b) taking a few months of non-play game time studying with real physican NPCs. Going from no medicine to 2D or more during play seems unlikely for most PCs that we have playing.
The PC is still not as good at medicine as the off the shelf 2-1B droid that another player bought for her freighter's med bay. Players, especially human players are unlikely to be as good at medicine as an average med droid. And guess what we see in the movies, most "doctors" are actually specialized droids. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | I think the RAW is quite clear that its 1D you can use for specializations. Also, you can only divide full D:s when creating characters. If people play that way is another matter... Again, the RAW are not important when it comes to specific games, only when discussing them. |
I realize this is slightly lashing a deceased equine, but quite clear would say "can only spend blah blah blah." Not quite so clear says "can spend blah blah blah." The RAW is not quite so clear. |
That is extrapolating what the rules could say. Sure they could, but at the moment it clearly says 'You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization.' Quite cear cut if you ask me.
Sure the rule could also say 'You can only put 1D into specializations' but if they meant otherwise it could also say 'for each 1D you put into specializations...', which it doesnt say.
BTW, 2nd ed says 'You may choose to spend 1D for specialized skills, but it is suggested that you pick your 'normal' skills first.'
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