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Should characters be able to soak blaster bolts? |
Yes |
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46% |
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No |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
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Total Votes : 30 |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Naaman Vice Admiral
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Armor works. A character wearing any sort of armor ought to have some chance to "soak" the damage.
Furthermore, its rare, but in real life, there are cases where mere clothing has stopped bullets.
Cases where a bullet impacts the skull at an angle and skims along or deflects off of the forehead rather than penetrating into the skull.
Cases wherein a belt buckle or a pocket bible in the breast pocket have completely stopped bullets.
If we agree that there are some materials that make blasters ineffective (in strange ways like what happens to bullets), then we can imagine that there are miraculous or other anomolous scenarios where blaster bolts fail (it could even be the result of a momentary or temporary malfunction internal to the blaster where the formed bolt is just a dud, similar to how a bad primer in a cartridge will result in a failure to fire, or a weak powder charge will result in a weak impact or velocity such that a trench coat stops the round, etc.).
With blasters this could be a faulty power pack, bad gas, a damaged or dirty coil system in the barrel or some other issue external to the weapon itself. _________________ .
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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While those are all excellent and realistic reasons, Naaman, it still doesn't change the fact that this isn't something we see reflected in the films.
So even if we come up with realistic explanations for why this might be (in this often more pulp than realistic genre), it still happens way more often than the "Holy Cow! my pocket Bible stopped that bullet!"-type situations occurs in real life (which is way less than 1%). _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Right on.
Naaman wrote: | If we agree that there are some materials that make blasters ineffective (in strange ways like what happens to bullets), then we can imagine that there are miraculous or other anomolous scenarios where blaster bolts fail (it could even be the result of a momentary or temporary malfunction internal to the blaster where the formed bolt is just a dud, similar to how a bad primer in a cartridge will result in a failure to fire, or a weak powder charge will result in a weak impact or velocity such that a trench coat stops the round, etc.).
With blasters this could be a faulty power pack, bad gas, a damaged or dirty coil system in the barrel or some other issue external to the weapon itself. |
I love this. It's great to have in-universe technobabble to explain why a blaster bolt might do less damage than expected. Personally this would be more narration for me to explain blaster stunned results, but since there are two results that aren't represented in the primary sources for my sense of Star Wars verisimilitude, I still find that I'm hesitant to to use this to explain blaster bolt soaking (perhaps I will with this and another factor). But this may completely resolve the concern for some GMs, so bravo.
Naaman wrote: | Armor works. |
Sure, armor works to lessen damage results, but in the primary source this game was based on (the CT), there isn't a single case where film evidence indicates that armored characters ever experienced what would in the game be any damage result better than incapacitated from a single blaster bolt. In the CT, there are many examples of incapacitated or worse. Of course, incapacitated and mortally wounded results could be the armor saving the character's life. The PT has two movies that feature an army of characters with armor, and there still isn't any definitive evidence of armored characters only getting wounded or better. (If any of these armored characters were only wounded, they all got back up off screen.)
The DT had a single instance where a blaster bolt was deflected off of armor (which could still be a stunned result), but that was a character with unique armor that is reasonable more protective than most armors. The DT still had many other examples of armored characters getting incapacitated or worse. The two Disney prequel films also only show armored characters getting incapacitated or worse from blaster bolts. It wasn't until The Mandalorian where we see an armored character take multiple blaster bolts seemingly without being wounded, but that is explicitly special armor, and there are many, many more examples of other armored characters being incapacitated or worse by a blaster bolt on that show.
It was never my concern that armor shouldn't help, and I'm happy with the general mechanism of how it helps in the game by providing a bonus to damage resistance rolls. Despite a lack of evidence to the contrary, I personally have no problem with armor only wounding characters, and I also go even one step further to stunned with some narration to explain that. But soaking blaster bolts is three levels better than the established 'norm' for even armored characters. That is really pushing it for how armor helps within my sense of verisimilitude. According to the poll, I'm not alone in this. _________________ *
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | Armor works. A character wearing any sort of armor ought to have some chance to "soak" the damage.
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So perhaps with armor, the least damage a character can get is stunned, if not wearing armor, the least damage they can get is wounded.>?? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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MrNexx Rear Admiral
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Naaman wrote: | Armor works. A character wearing any sort of armor ought to have some chance to "soak" the damage.
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So perhaps with armor, the least damage a character can get is stunned, if not wearing armor, the least damage they can get is wounded.>?? |
I'd lean more towards "Someone wearing armor might escape damage entirely, but someone not wearing armor will be stunned, regardless of their soak."
It especially fits in with some of the newer material, like Mandalorian. Din is able to completely ignore some blaster bolts, which would enforce the value of armor, even if Stormtrooper armor seems to be made of cardboard. _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | So perhaps with armor, the least damage a character can get is stunned, if not wearing armor, the least damage they can get is wounded.>?? |
There's our resident evil GM coming out. I was only suggesting soaking blaster bolts be rare, but here you take it further and suggest eliminating soak and stunned for unarmored characters. That's radical but if that works for you, great. If you go for that, I would suggest you apply that to NPCs to and not just PCs.
MrNexx wrote: | I'd lean more towards "Someone wearing armor might escape damage entirely, but someone not wearing armor will be stunned, regardless of their soak."
It especially fits in with some of the newer material, like Mandalorian. Din is able to completely ignore some blaster bolts, which would enforce the value of armor, even if Stormtrooper armor seems to be made of cardboard. |
That's where I'm at, except stormtrooper armor doesn't allow soaking blaster bolts.
My stormtrooper armor gives +2D physical (the white plastoid plating) and only +1 pip to energy damage resistance (the black body glove). With my stormtroopers stats and damage system, a blaster with 5D damage will incapacitate a stormtrooper with undamaged armor on average (die code average damage and damage resistance rolls). Sure, some wounded and stunned results still occur, but on average they are incapacitated.
These two things help my game achieve a sufficient level of verisimilitude of it taking place in the same universe as the films. And with armor damage rules, if a stormtrooper does get wounded by energy damage, then the armor is useless for protecting against further energy damage until repaired. _________________ *
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Naaman Vice Admiral
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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I see, I see. The films are typically what I base my own sense of verisimilitude upon also.
I suppose that, in my particular case, for the sake of my own suspension of disbelief, armor must have some chance of completely stopping damage.
Now, real life armor typically can stop ONE bullet of its rated capacity (or, is guaranteed to stop exactly one bullet of the strongest caliber it is rated for, and may stop an indefinite number of such bullets; lesser calibers can be withstood seemingly idefinitely).
But if armor is utterly incapable of full protection (at least against a limited amount of firepower), it begins to feel like armor is a waste of credits (again, this is for my personal suspension of disbelief) especially when wearing armor means you get hit more often.
Now, how we describe the outcome of dice rolls could solve the problem:
It is possible to get shot without suffering a reduction in combat effectiveness (especially if we're talking about movie heroes). Does a graze (breaking the skin only) count as a "soaked" hit, or a near miss?
Would having a finger partially amputated by a shot (and perhaps cauterized by the blaster burn) count as wounded or stunned? Even if it doesn't faze the character in the heat of battle?
And not to get overly nuanced, but I'm now wondering about something like a personal shield generator (such as the destroyer droids in TPM had).
Phrik alloy? Could the material that the armor is made of make the difference?
What about hard cover? If a character can hide behind a wooden cantina table and stay safe, why not just wear a wooden chest plate (or a chest plate made from whatever material they were hiding behind)? _________________ .
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:51 am Post subject: |
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MrNexx wrote: |
It especially fits in with some of the newer material, like Mandalorian. Din is able to completely ignore some blaster bolts, which would enforce the value of armor, even if Stormtrooper armor seems to be made of cardboard. |
Maybe that's cause mando armor is better than normal?
Quote: | There's our resident evil GM coming out. |
Thanks!!
Quote: | My stormtrooper armor gives +2D physical (the white plastoid plating) and only +1 pip to energy damage resistance (the black body glove). With my stormtroopers stats and damage system, a blaster with 5D damage will incapacitate a stormtrooper with undamaged armor on average (die code average damage and damage resistance rolls). Sure, some wounded and stunned results still occur, but on average they are incapacitated. |
So do they still suffer a -1d dex penalty, cause of the loss of energy protection?? And do you reduce the protection, that blast vests and such, provide? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | I see, I see. The films are typically what I base my own sense of verisimilitude upon also. |
Me too, for some things anyway. The original planetary systems I create have to draw more on more real science than the films do. We each have our own various tolerances for disbelief suspension.
Naaman wrote: | I suppose that, in my particular case, for the sake of my own suspension of disbelief, armor must have some chance of completely stopping damage.
Now, real life armor typically can stop ONE bullet of its rated capacity (or, is guaranteed to stop exactly one bullet of the strongest caliber it is rated for, and may stop an indefinite number of such bullets; lesser calibers can be withstood seemingly idefinitely).
But if armor is utterly incapable of full protection (at least against a limited amount of firepower), |
I do not recall anyone in this thread suggesting that armor is utterly incapable of providing full protection. First of all, this whole thread is devoted specifically to blaster (energy) damage. I feel armored and unarmored characters both should still be able to fully soak physical damage.
With respect to blaster damage, I still wasn't saying all armor. I suggested stormtrooper armor specifically can't soak blaster bolts because it never does in the films. CRM suggested a possible cut-off being armor with a resistance bonus of +1D or higher can soak. That would include RAW stormtrooper armor, but not my stormtrooper armor (+2D physical, +1 pip energy).
Naaman wrote: | it begins to feel like armor is a waste of credits (again, this is for my personal suspension of disbelief) especially when wearing armor means you get hit more often. |
I'm ok with that because I don't care for players overly relying on armor. There are many situations and locations in my game where PCs can't get away with wearing much if any armor, so armor is only ever an occasional thing in my campaigns.
I hate the over reliance on personal technology in general. I've ran many, many, many adventures where PCs don't need much more than their wits, a communicator, and a good blaster at their side. Rather than being able to resist more damage, it is always better to not get hit in the first place. Dodge is the single most important skill in the game.
None of the Lucas film heroes wear armor unless the armor is a disguise. Finn starts with armor in the DT, but once he takes it off, he never puts it back on again for the rest of the "trilogy." The same for Solo in Solo when he goes awol from the Empire.
Naaman wrote: | Now, how we describe the outcome of dice rolls could solve the problem:
It is possible to get shot without suffering a reduction in combat effectiveness (especially if we're talking about movie heroes). Does a graze (breaking the skin only) count as a "soaked" hit, or a near miss? |
Well in your question, you've got it backwards. Unless you have a really detailed and specific hit location chart/rules for every attack, then the game mechanical outcome is determined first and the in-universe details of the result is determined from the outcome, for GMs like myself that bother to give details about the wound status. So in the proper order, an actual near miss (by close rolls) would not be a graze (a miss is a miss), but a stunned result could be a graze. I've also interpreted a stunned result from a blaster bolt attack as a very near miss, such as a blaster bolt whizzed by someone's face and rang their ear or burned their face a little from the heat of the bolt.
Naaman wrote: | Would having a finger partially amputated by a shot (and perhaps cauterized by the blaster burn) count as wounded or stunned? Even if it doesn't faze the character in the heat of battle? |
Backwards again, but reversing it, I would never have an amputated finger as an outcome detail of any game wound status result. For most species, fingers don't grow back in bacta tanks, so this would technically be a maim/permanent injury (although a minor one — I've had two uncles with one missing finger each). The damage system in the game, and even my tweaked character damage system, does not include permanent injuries except for the severe injuries option when the outcome of a player attack is a killed result but the player chooses to instead deal a lesser damage with a permanent injury. For that option, a missing finger would be too minor to be the outcome of escaping death.
Remember, the game is a simulation for the purpose of creating original stories that seem like they could take place in the SWU, but it is not the case that all possible real world injuries have to represented in the game. No one will feel the adventures will lack SW verisimilitude without missing fingers.
Naaman wrote: | And not to get overly nuanced, but I'm now wondering about something like a personal shield generator (such as the destroyer droids in TPM had). |
Yes, character-scale shield generators should be able to soak blaster bolts. I believe they were shown doing that in the PT.
Naaman wrote: | Phrik alloy? Could the material that the armor is made of make the difference? |
Definitely, yes. One material that I feel would not soak blaster bolts will be stormtrooper armor. This thread was never about all armor or all damage types. It was always about characters not always being able to soak energy damage.
Naaman wrote: | What about hard cover? If a character can hide behind a wooden cantina table and stay safe, |
Yes, cover with protection does sometimes provide full protection in the films, and that is reflected in RAW. My version is a lot like RAW except I've also added damage accumulation rules. So you don't just have to score a destroyed in single result to get through the protection to get to your target character. Multiple damages may accumulate to destroy the protection as well.
Naaman wrote: | why not just wear a wooden chest plate (or a chest plate made from whatever material they were hiding behind)? |
In the SWU I'm sure there is wood with stronger energy damage protection than "plastoid" stormtrooper armor. I'm adapting a D6 Space Aliens species that wears armor developed by stimulating a coral formation with electricity.
garhkal wrote: | Whill wrote: | My stormtrooper armor gives +2D physical (the white plastoid plating) and only +1 pip to energy damage resistance (the black body glove). With my stormtroopers stats and damage system, a blaster with 5D damage will incapacitate a stormtrooper with undamaged armor on average (die code average damage and damage resistance rolls). Sure, some wounded and stunned results still occur, but on average they are incapacitated. |
So do they still suffer a -1d dex penalty, cause of the loss of energy protection?? And do you reduce the protection, that blast vests and such, provide? |
In my game armor may have three possible components: the body armor suit, the helmet, and the body glove. Each armor component may have any of these die code factors: energy bonus, physical bonus, Dex penalty. The stormtrooper body glove that provides the +1 pip energy damage protection does not have any Dex penalty. The rest of the armor (+2D physical protection) has a net Dex penalty of -1D, like in RAW. But stormtrooper armor training reduces the Dex penalty to only -1 pip. A PC getting on stormtrooper armor will usually have the full -1D Dex penalty.
I haven't restatted all armors so far. Mostly just a lot of stormtroopers armors, but I have done blast helmet and blast vest. Those each provide +1 to energy and +2 to physical (with no Dex penalties). Since I do not do up front hit location determination, each armor/component provides a net benefit for overall probabilities. _________________ *
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MrNexx Rear Admiral
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: |
That's where I'm at, except stormtrooper armor doesn't allow soaking blaster bolts.
My stormtrooper armor gives +2D physical (the white plastoid plating) and only +1 pip to energy damage resistance (the black body glove). With my stormtroopers stats and damage system, a blaster with 5D damage will incapacitate a stormtrooper with undamaged armor on average (die code average damage and damage resistance rolls). Sure, some wounded and stunned results still occur, but on average they are incapacitated.
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Stormtrooper armor is so hilariously ineffective. It makes me wonder what costs were cut between the Clone Wars and the Empire era. _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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MrNexx wrote: | Whill wrote: |
That's where I'm at, except stormtrooper armor doesn't allow soaking blaster bolts.
My stormtrooper armor gives +2D physical (the white plastoid plating) and only +1 pip to energy damage resistance (the black body glove). With my stormtroopers stats and damage system, a blaster with 5D damage will incapacitate a stormtrooper with undamaged armor on average (die code average damage and damage resistance rolls). Sure, some wounded and stunned results still occur, but on average they are incapacitated.
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Stormtrooper armor is so hilariously ineffective. It makes me wonder what costs were cut between the Clone Wars and the Empire era. |
Is it, or do we all "make it so"....was it inteded that no stormtrroper ever would have "any" defense and benefit from armor, and then be able to somhow concour?
Or has it been made this way by us fans, becuse of plot armors and mooks.
I mean we see in action movies people in ballistic body armor die becuse the hero is heroic........this really doens't diminish the actual and factual protection.
I would let stormtrropers have +1D vs energy, as this is how the armro is described, it is described as a energy dispercing armor, meant to defend against blaster s***.
So how to tweak rules to the instant kill/incapistate we see in the movies, and still have the logically viable as actual enemies, and tho fit with what they are in books more than the WEG mechanics?
How about something liie this: they have +1D vs energy.
but they can also be one shotted even if taking less than "max# damage.
Stomtrooper 2D strenght, armor 1D total for roll 3D
He is a mook and can not have exploding wild dice, he can max roll 18
he is shot by Smuggler Joe for 15 Damage, normally not enough to down the trooper.
however lets us take this in two differnt ways.
Trooper is shot by an attack roll that did not explode.
in this case smugler joe shot the trooper and rolls 4'-5-4-2 for a total of 15
*= wild dice
Now the stormtrroper here soaks this damage.
however when smuler Joe had his wild dice explode, still on the 15 roll the trooper goes down.
Smuggler Joe shoots for 15, the trooper defends for 18 ( for damage)
Smuggler Joe 6*-2-4-1-2 having gotten another dice from his exploding die he still rolled 15, however becuse the wild dice here exploded he hit the armor's weak point allowing the trooper to go down.
basically if wild dice is exploding you can not soak, but when wild dice do not explode you can soak, to the limits your armor allows |
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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TBH, a lot of "stormtrooper armor sucks" also goes away if you give a damage bonus for great shots. Hit by enough, and their armor doesn't manage, and it becomes a case of "The heroes are just that good", not "Their armor is that bad." _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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MrNexx wrote: | TBH, a lot of "stormtrooper armor sucks" also goes away if you give a damage bonus for great shots. Hit by enough, and their armor doesn't manage, and it becomes a case of "The heroes are just that good", not "Their armor is that bad." |
I'm in this camp, and even while in this camp, I've seen Stormtrooper armor allow troopers to shrug off anything less than a heavy blaster or a rifle. Most small arms are relatively ineffective against it. I also use the Clone Trooper stats for my Stormtroopers, which have Stormies rolling 4D+1 to resist energy damage. (3D+1 Strength + 1D Energy Resistance) _________________ RR
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: |
With respect to blaster damage, I still wasn't saying all armor. I suggested stormtrooper armor specifically can't soak blaster bolts because it never does in the films. CRM suggested a possible cut-off being armor with a resistance bonus of +1D or higher can soak. That would include RAW stormtrooper armor, but not my stormtrooper armor (+2D physical, +1 pip energy). |
BUT if (since most enemies are going to be using blasters), storm trooper armor really does NOTHING then, WHY the hell would the empire create SUCH A MASSIVE wide spread org, KNOWN As storm troopers, to "push their will', if they are really that ineffective at protecting their troops??
Whill wrote: | None of the Lucas film heroes wear armor unless the armor is a disguise. Finn starts with armor in the DT, but once he takes it off, he never puts it back on again for the rest of the "trilogy." The same for Solo in Solo when he goes awol from the Empire. |
Hell, even in Rogue one, at most we see that chest plate, on Baze. Most of the rest of the rebels, didn't even look like they had flak/blast vests.. Some did seem to have blast helmets.
Whill wrote: | Well in your question, you've got it backwards. Unless you have a really detailed and specific hit location chart/rules for every attack, then the game mechanical outcome is determined first and the in-universe details of the result is determined from the outcome, for GMs like myself that bother to give details about the wound status. So in the proper order, an actual near miss (by close rolls) would not be a graze (a miss is a miss), but a stunned result could be a graze. I've also interpreted a stunned result from a blaster bolt attack as a very near miss, such as a blaster bolt whizzed by someone's face and rang their ear or burned their face a little from the heat of the bolt. |
Or the blast hit the wall to the side of the character, showering him in shrapnel..
Mamatried wrote: | s it, or do we all "make it so"....was it inteded that no stormtrroper ever would have "any" defense and benefit from armor, and then be able to somhow concour?
Or has it been made this way by us fans, becuse of plot armors and mooks.
I mean we see in action movies people in ballistic body armor die becuse the hero is heroic........this really doens't diminish the actual and factual protection. |
OR as we see in other movies, if that same armor was worn by the hero, few if any shots, penetrate it....
MrNexx wrote: | TBH, a lot of "stormtrooper armor sucks" also goes away if you give a damage bonus for great shots. Hit by enough, and their armor doesn't manage, and it becomes a case of "The heroes are just that good", not "Their armor is that bad." |
Very true. It also helps eliminate the issue of blasterproof wookies or barbels/trandoshans. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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